AIBU to think that the anti UPF books and diets around at the moment are just a new version of Clean Eating?

No, she did not only eat junk. She ate a standard Western diet. Cereal with milk for breakfast, school dinners, tea which was sometimes home made spaghetti bol type meals and sometimes convenience foods like oven chips or chicken nuggets. It was exactly the same diet as any typical 21st century kid whose parents are working.

In order to get IBD, first off you have to be genetically susceptible. Most people aren't. My daughter's great granny had Crohn's (in middle age and until she died) so obviously we have the gene.

It is thought that this gene can be switched on by certain viral infections. Epstein Barr seems implicated as one of the "switch on" viruses. My DD tested positive to EB antibodies which means she was infected by this virus at some point in her childhood.

Then the situation is exacerbated by the way upf foods destroy the microbial balance of the intestine. As it happens I was on a permanent diet and we often used "low fat" spreads, "low sugar" biscuits etc. But even something as innocuous as instant gravy is choc full of maltodextrin, so if you have a lovely Sunday roast and pour bisto over it, you are impacting your microbiome.

The microbiome appears, in very simple terms, to effectively function as a protective layer over the inside of your intestine. So if you are killing that off, your inside protective layer is not working like it should. Add to that the inherited tendency to inflammation in the intestines that has been switched on by the virus, and you end up with inflammation and no protection so your insides get sores and ulcers on them. This turn stops you absorbing the goodness from your food and you get malnourished.

So MOST people can eat UPFs and just get a bit of a reduced microbiome, a bit of inflammation through the body, get a bit overweight, a bit of insulin resistance. But if you are unlucky and have the IBD gene, and the trigger virus, then the same foods have a much worse effect.

I know you are asking in good faith but it's a bit like asking a type 1 diabetic if they only ate sweets and sugar and that's why they are diabetic. No, it's a genetic lottery.

I feel the quantities of those ingredients in your average food product would not cause the problems the poster describes unless you literally solely ate those foods. I've been into avoiding junk food for a while before this upf book was written so I've been avoiding crisps chocolates and fizzy drinks and reading labels for a while, did yall know the biggest ingredient goes first on the ingredients list, things like "guar gum, soy lethitin" are usually last because they are in small quantities.
Hence I feel like an asshole asking because for diet alone to have caused those problems it would have to of been an extremely bad diet. Sometimes it's just bad luck/genes and it's a shame to see parents beat themselves up over how they caused it. I say that from experience one of my children had a birth defect and I beat myself up for ages overanalyzing every little thing I had/hadn't done while pregnant

*Edited to add I did not do drugs or drink alcohol while pregnant in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick

I feel the quantities of those ingredients in your average food product would not cause the problems the poster describes unless you literally solely ate those foods. I've been into avoiding junk food for a while before this upf book was written so I've been avoiding crisps chocolates and fizzy drinks and reading labels for a while, did yall know the biggest ingredient goes first on the ingredients list, things like "guar gum, soy lethitin" are usually last because they are in small quantities.
Hence I feel like an asshole asking because for diet alone to have caused those problems it would have to of been an extremely bad diet. Sometimes it's just bad luck/genes and it's a shame to see parents beat themselves up over how they caused it. I say that from experience one of my children had a birth defect and I beat myself up for ages overanalyzing every little thing I had/hadn't done while pregnant

*Edited to add I did not do drugs or drink alcohol while pregnant in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick

I’m sure the poster will be able to answer herself, but going by the earlier post she refers to things like gums, emulsifiers, carrageenans and maltodextrin – very familiar ingredients you’ll see in many ‘everyday’ products available in any supermarket. But which you won’t see in home made food as they are used exclusively in industrial food production.

I’m sure the poster will be able to answer herself, but going by the earlier post she refers to things like gums, emulsifiers, carrageenans and maltodextrin – very familiar ingredients you’ll see in many ‘everyday’ products available in any supermarket. But which you won’t see in home made food as they are used exclusively in industrial food production.

I get that, but in the comment I replied to she mentions how her daughter has had IBS since aged 6 and is now on many medications which she attributes to the diet she ate but doesn't mention what that consisted of so I m curious what it was she ate. But like I said I feel bad asking because the poster is probably already beating herself up about it

It’s on a population level – so while not everyone will have the same outcome (even a group of genetically identical people with the same lifestyle and eating exactly the same foods would not all have the same health outcomes – random chance plays a role), it is possible to identify correlations and increased risk relating to certain factors.

I'm sorry I feel there's no way to ask this question without sounding like an asshole so I apologise in advance if it upsets you but what was your daughter eating for that to happen or do you think it was just also bad luck. I've known some people with really horrendous diets literally family sized Cadbury chocolate bars and whole foot long baguettes with nothing in them and while they were far from healthy they didn't have the problems you describe

No it's not bollocks designed to "make women hate their bodies" and that is a really privileged statement to make.

There is significant evidence that there has been a huge increase in autoimmune conditions and a dramatically increased prevalence of inflammatory bowel disease, especially in children. Back in the 70s IBD in children was extremely rare; now we have children aged 2 being diagnosed. My daughter had it from age 6 or so, diagnosed at 11.

https://www.uhs.nhs.uk/whats-new/news/study-shows-cases-of-inflammatory-bowel-disease-in-children-doubles-in-10-years#:~:text=Approximately%201%2C750%20children%20and%20young,treated%20at%20Southampton%20Children's%20Hospital.

There is research evidence that certain emulsifiers, gums and carageenans and maltodextrin destroy gut flora and the human microbiome. Some emulsifiers (soy lecithin, mono and diglyercides of fatty acids) are less bad but some cause significant changes.
Here is one recent piece of research.

https://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40168-020-00996-6

Maltodextrin, for example, is the biggest ingredient in many brands of instant gravy and used in a lot of gluten free alternatives. Yet there is research evidence that it destroys aspects of the microbiome.

My beef is with the food industry and the diet industry. They told us that low fat alternatives (full of emulsifiers for mouth feel) are healthier. They told us that if you get digestive issues you might want to try gluten free foods - choc full of maltodextrin to avoid wheat starch, and emulsifiers to bind it together. They suggested we go vegan for our health and then made UPF vegan "meat".

It is better to eat food as close to how nature intended. If you are lucky, eating UPF good as per standard Western diet is not going to cause you a lifetime of dealing with an incurable autoimmune condition. My daughter unfortunately wasn't so lucky and is now on omeprazole, mesalazine, immune suppressant azathioprine, and biologic immune suppressant infliximab until they stop working for her. She has 3 monthly blood tests to check these meds haven't stopped her liver from working effectively. She has quadruple the chance of developing lymphoma because of the drug regime, and has to wear sunscreen every day to reduce her chance of skin cancer. She has delayed puberty. In a flare she becomes so anaemic that her heart rate is 120 BPM just walking.

So no, it's not the latest fad. It's research based and it's a scandal in my opinion.

@Harri899 @GiddyRobin

Misinformation (or disinformation) I would argue is a distinct separate issue that extends across many different areas beyond nutrition and health.

Arguably, research groups in this area who are publicising findings about UPFs are acting in direct opposition to those spreading misinformation and disinformation (distinction being intent) about diets and health claims.

No doubt she was given a nice nest egg of cash for whatever UPF product kindly sponsored her recovery...

Just saw your edit. I overlooked your unnecessarily unkind comment about the best teary face before but this is so cynical. I won’t be engaging further. You sound like you take a pretty hardline stance towards UPF tbh so we’ll never agree.

It’s a concern for me because not all people can make that distinction, including young people. That’s why I care. I also care because I’m a parent myself and I worry about the chance, however small, of my own child getting sucked into something trotted out by a self-styled ‘expert’ on social media (when a young adult and I can no longer decide if she has SM or not, monitor her screen time and have parental controls in place), whether directly or indirectly through peers who have been exposed to misinformation.

Then why is it a concern for you? If most people can differentiate between a fad and fact, why are you worried about it? Why even bring it up to begin with?

Eating disorders can spring from many things, UPF free is no more likely to be a trigger for it than an abusive relationship. The only difference is that no one (well, who knows. There's a whole trad wife section on Instagram after all) is on Instagram overtly advertising DV. There are, however, people all over Instagram advertising all kinds of woo nutrition "advice" and labelling it as UPF-free...but it isn't the same thing.

People who get their information from Instagram are really bloody obvious. It's the same with a variety of other topics that I'm not going to bring into this thread. But again, just because some woman says going UPF free gave her an ED doesn't mean it's the fault of the UPF free "movement". No doubt she was given a nice nest egg of cash for whatever UPF product kindly sponsored her recovery...

You could eat poorly eating UPF free. You could literally eat bread and butter and nothing else every day. UPF free isn't a clean eating health fad. Lots of people who are invested in it do want good healthy lifestyles, but there's nothing inherent about UPF free food that means you're going to shrink down.

Then why is it a concern for you? If most people can differentiate between a fad and fact, why are you worried about it? Why even bring it up to begin with?

Eating disorders can spring from many things, UPF free is no more likely to be a trigger for it than an abusive relationship. The only difference is that no one (well, who knows. There's a whole trad wife section on Instagram after all) is on Instagram overtly advertising DV. There are, however, people all over Instagram advertising all kinds of woo nutrition "advice" and labelling it as UPF-free...but it isn't the same thing.

People who get their information from Instagram are really bloody obvious. It's the same with a variety of other topics that I'm not going to bring into this thread. But again, just because some woman says going UPF free gave her an ED doesn't mean it's the fault of the UPF free "movement". No doubt she was given a nice nest egg of cash for whatever UPF product kindly sponsored her recovery...

You could eat poorly eating UPF free. You could literally eat bread and butter and nothing else every day. UPF free isn't a clean eating health fad. Lots of people who are invested in it do want good healthy lifestyles, but there's nothing inherent about UPF free food that means you're going to shrink down.

Yes, but saying that it's alright in the same breath as saying it's a concern is quite hypocritical, isn't it?

I disagree. People can use social media for its benefits while simultaneously knowing its limitations. Life isn’t as black and white as that.

The fact you even think eating non UPF veers into orhorexia or restrictive, "clean eating" shows your information is wrong.

My exact words were “Some of it [specifically referring to ‘info’ on social media] more than veers into orthorexia unfortunately.” I won’t insult you by explaining what ‘some’ means. I have seen an eating disorder in my own family start with what was initially a goal to be healthy which then became a purist approach to food before become disordered eating then finally a diagnosed eating disorder. By extension, I refuse to believe that there won’t also be SOME people out there with a strict adherence to non-UPF who don’t have some kind of disordered eating, however mild. If it needs pointing out, I am certain MOST will have a perfectly healthy (mentally as well as physically), balanced approach.

Yes, but saying that it's alright in the same breath as saying it's a concern is quite hypocritical, isn't it?

If you're concerning yourself with what's going on there, and claiming it's having an effect on people, then it's obviously not a good source for information. I've been on Instagram in the past, used it mainly for business purposes. Some of the rubbish that pops up I can quite understand why people are getting false information. I've also known people who use it to shill their crap when in real life they don't even stick to it themselves. It's a breeding ground for idiocy. There was a thread on here last year where someone found a list of none UPF foods on Instagram and was worried she couldn't afford them. They were all UPF free ready made things, many of which were being shilled by a certain influencer. It was pointed out repeatedly that eating UPF free is literally just buying proper ingredients and cooking at home, like we've been doing for generations before.

The fact you even think eating non UPF veers into orhorexia or restrictive, "clean eating" shows your information is wrong. They're not the same thing. Even if some woman on Instagram tells you it was for her, whilst pulling her best teary face.

There will always be some people who will become fanatical, whether that’s with clean eating or a UPF-free/low diet.

I don’t need explaining that social media is more often than not not real life. 😂 The only social media I have is this, if that counts, for this reason among several. I actually saw her being interviewed on TV and she had a large following, presumably mainly made up of young women who found her credible as some kind of trainer or nutritionist (I can’t remember what) - which many don’t realise is not the same as being a dietician of course. I disagree that all “grown adults” as you put it would be best coming off the likes of Instagram if they enjoy it and are aware of its limitations as I’m sure most are. I would also argue that Instagram is also used by “normal people”. There will be professionals among those not qualified to speak about certain things, especially in certain industries where social media is actually an important facet. Which is precisely where the problem lies.

So called "clean eating" is not the same thing, though. Eating UPF free doesn't cut out any major food groups, including carbohydrates or fats.

There are always going to be people out to make a buck as they shill whatever nonsense they're harping on about. Instagram influencers are hardly people to be taken seriously. Their lives, or what they put out as their lives, aren't a reflection of the majority. I'd also argue that they're not even a true reflection of the life they actually lead; it's all a load of shite.

I'd recommend grown adults get off Instagram and stop paying attention to the fads going on in that vacuum, and speak to normal people about these things.

Bread, potatoes and oats are bad because they ‘spike your blood sugar’. So even if you do make the effort to cook from scratch it’s still not good enough.

I imagine this is more a concern with diabetes certainly and if pre-diabetic too, perhaps. I do agree there’s a very all or nothing approach though, even in the absence of conditions such as diabetes. I worry for my DD when she’s old enough for social media as a young adult, and some of the messaging even around good things like eating well. Some of it more than veers into orthorexia unfortunately. Eg An influencer recently spoke out about how her clean eating habits shared on social media as something to aspire to caused her to lose her menstrual cycle. We eat very well but I also like a piece of cake now and again - even if not sugar free and not homemade. Especially if not sugar free! 😂 And we have a rare takeaway with food I can’t cook as well at home although I’ll still have a go eg Japanese. It’s not for everyone and some are far stricter (my SIL will never eat takeaway and will just make her own versions at home) but I feel it’s the right approach for our family. My toddler already likes things like sushi (non-raw kind) but she’s not really bothered about the cake she has tried at birthday parties.

I find we eat more upf because of our allergies. We can't have dairy, soya, eggs, oats or legumes in our house so we rely on upf nut milks for calcium for example, coconut yogurt. Low upf breakfasts are almost impossible for us.

B was a recreation of the chicken nuggets because it was a like for like meal to show cost comparison.

Mention of dahls, stews, etc underlines my point about knowing what to make being a privilege and not everyone has this knowledge or the wherewithal to seek it out. For a lot of people on low incomes it would also be a gamble of spending the food budget on something they know their family will eat vs something that they might not eat. Then there is the fuel cost of having the oven/air fryer on for 15-20 minutes vs having it on all day.