Valentina Petrillo shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's race

None of those cases have anything to do with Petrillo, though. He's a bog-standard male fetishist (stealing his sister's underwear, etc) who's married, fathered children, raced in the correct category, and now decides he's going to impose his fetish on unwilling women athletes, cheating women out of opportunities. He knows he's male, just as the IOC does. That's why he, and they, do this. It's not some faux-innocent confusion about who's a man and who's a woman. It's entirely deliberate.

Perhaps you will find this graph below useful. It is a chart using data from a paper written by David Handelman, Uni of Sydney and gives the testosterone ranges for female people versus male people. The person who created the chart added two lines. One for 10 nmol/L for when Hubbard was allowed to compete and one for 5 nmol/L which was when Semenya went to CAS to fight against having to suppress to this level (or at all).

It has been stated that if a female person has testosterone levels above around 5.1 nmol/L they would be very ill, usually suspected of having a tumour. The green section is actually yellow in the colour key.

At the CAS hearing, it was in the witness statements that Semenya had testosterone levels of around 21 nmol/L if that helps.

Lots of names and contact details here if anyone wants to complain about World Para Athletics rules on this www.paralympic.org/athletics/contacts

Yep interestingly in the case of boxing it was the IOC, because the IBA, the boxing governing body, had been suspended.

I believe the below is how doping with testosterone is currently tested for:

"The current approach for testing for steroids involves comparing a ratio of testosterone (T) and epitestosterone (E), both produced naturally in the body to determine if athletes have been doping. Epitestosterone is a testosterone isomer (that is it has the same formula but a different arrangement of atoms in the molecule and different properties to testosterone). Since the body produces roughly equal amounts of T and E naturally, most people have a ratio of one-to-one. Still, there is some natural variation, which is the reason WADA allows the testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio to reach up to four-to-one for Olympic athletes. A laboratory result of >4:1 T/E ratio implies doping."

So as far as I know it's not quite as simple as just measuring the testosterone level.

I've been an athletics fan since the 1980s, I am aware that 10 nmol/L is a ridiculously high level to allow.

Oh that is interesting about the male testosterone being below 10 nanomoles.

What is the threshold for a biological woman's testosterone? And at what point if that threshold is breached is a biological woman banned for doping / cheating?

(hint- it's a fuckton less than 10 nanomoles).

Oh that is interesting about the male testosterone being below 10 nanomoles.

What is the threshold for a biological woman's testosterone? And at what point if that threshold is breached is a biological woman banned for doping / cheating?

(hint- it's a fuckton less than 10 nanomoles).

Some further info about the rules. The IPC and IOC do both have a policy of allowing each sport's governing body to make their own rules.

What are the rules for trans athletes at the Paralympics?
In 2021, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and International Paralympic Committee (IPC) devolved responsibility to each international sport federation to make their own policies. The IPC reiterated this when contacted by The Athletic. That means there is no one rule for all sports regarding transgender inclusion.

What are the rules for trans athletes in para-athletics?
World Athletics has a different policy from World Para Athletics (WPA). Transgender women are not allowed to compete in World Athletics female categories, but they are allowed to compete in World Para Athletics female categories. If Petrillo attempted to compete in the Olympics or other non-disabled international athletics competitions, she would not be allowed.

Under rule 4.5, World Para Athletics states a person who is legally recognised as a woman is eligible to compete in female categories.
The WPA added “transgender athletes must provide evidence that their total testosterone level has been below 10 nanomoles per litre of blood for at least 12 months prior to their first female competition, and for as long as they remain competing in female competition”.

They are two separate organisations, and there is no more expectation for the IPC to to "take their lead" from the IOC than there is for the IOC to take their lead from the IPC. They do however have a co-operation agreement which you can read about here https://www.paralympic.org/news/ioc-and-ipc-agree-principles-new-agreement-through-2032 so I imagine they might discuss issues affecting both organisations, which might include this.

However none of this about matters, because the fact that this wouldn't be allowed in athletics in the Olympics isn't due to IOC policies, it's due to the policies of World Athletics. In the interview with Andrew Parsons, President of the IPC, which was shown when Tanni Grey-Thompson and Libby Clegg were discussing Petrillo, he was clear that it is the rules of World Para Athletics (and other sports' governing bodies) which mean it is allowed in the Paralympics.

I really wish WPA would implement the same rules as WA have done about this, but there isn't any expectation that they should.

I agree that, whilst he's operating under the rules, that the rules are perverse and wrong. Technically, he's not cheating, but morally, he most certainly is. He's been enabled by the Paralympics authorities and in my opinion, they know exactly that it's wrong.

The fact that they have him his own toilet and changing space is proof to me. They knew perfectly well that the women would object, were he to change with them and why it would reflect badly on them.

Despite that, they chose to exclude an eligible female athlete, in order to pander to what is laughingly termed "inclusion."

@RichardMarxisinnocent you are right. It's the IPC it was the IOC nobheads who enabled Khelif to box against women.

Yes. You are right. It is the IPC. I wonder if they take their lead from the IOC or are fully detached with no expectation that they follow the IOC policies at all. Do you happen to know?

Once again, this the Paralympics so you mean the IPC not the IOC, and it's the individual sports' governing bodies which allow (or don't allow) this, which in this case is World Para Athletics, NOT the IPC.

🤣🤣🤣

"What was it that actually changed about this athlete's situation?"

I believe that the boxer in question started boxing in 2018 and was therefore still new and inexperienced when covid hit. Then after lock downs and competitions resumed, questions did indeed start being asked. Because that boxer was then older, had finished puberty and coaches and competitors were reporting just how hard those punches were.

That is why the testing was done.

"She was banned in 2023 by the Russian-led international boxing federation for allegedly failing an unspecified gender test."

This is really very weak. It is using guilt by association to somehow discredit the statements made by the IBA, the World Boxing Corporation and the European Boxing confederation.

The information presented, that the two boxers had XY chromosomes and male pubertal advantage have not been denied. Even by their official teams. That was the statements made by IBA and WBC.

Instead, language has been used to obfuscate the issue. They have been described as 'female' but not declared in public statements to have XX chromosomes. Khelif even went and got a Paris Endocrinologist's second opinion. Khelif's coach declared that this doctor declared that the chromosomes were not 'female'.

"There is no specific evidence of XY chromosomes that has actually been published and much of the 'information' about this boxer is rumour and speculation."

There is not going to be any published either unless a case goes to CAS or another court and the medical records are made public. Because there is no legal way for any organisation to demand the records are made public. That is for the athlete's to authorise. And they refused.

However, what has been noted now by three medical doctors who have seen various results is that Khelif does not have XX chromosomes AND has a body that responds to testosterone.

How do we know that Khelif's body responds to testosterone, apart from the obvious body cues? Because one of Khelif's team, who was then not countered at all, said that Khelif was now suppressing testosterone! And a body that doesn't process testosterone doesn't respond to testosterone suppression.

You can declare all you want that it is all 'rumour and speculation' but the inferences can be made from the information that is known. And what has not been directly stated as being false. And those inferences, are also not be directly stated as being false. Why is that?

Instead, we have official statements that repeat that someone has a female birthcertificate or passport, that someone grew up as a female person, and that someone doesn't consider themselves male. Never has there been an official statement that Khelif has XX chromosomes and has natural testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L.

This man does not have a DSD.

I'm not aware of any DSD which affects males and results in both a female phenotype and menstruation. The absence of periods would be the trigger for further investigation so it would be highly unlikely that any male over the age of 18 would remain unaware of a DSD.

The males who do have DSD's and compete in the women's category all seem to have the same DSD and there are reports that they are actively recruited to train for female competition.

I agree that the rules need to change but I'm not sure why women should be disadvantaged because a DSD affecting males was not picked up at birth. It's unfortunate for those individuals affected but women should not be obliged to give up their dreams to make them feel better.

Nobody has ever claimed that the Algerian boxer is trans.

The reason the advanced tests - which were actually verified in an independent and well regarded laboratory, not in someone’s garage with a diy chemistry set - is because the athletes team chose not to appeal against the decision. By international rules the exact results of the tests, and indeed the nature of the tests used, are kept secret UNLESS the athlete appeals the results, in which case at the appeal the results are revealed in full. This is what scuppered Semanya’s claim to be a woman, his tests categorically showed that Semanya has a DSD which only ever occurs in males.

If the Algerian boxers team believed wholeheartedly that the tests would prove that the athlete was a woman then it begs the question of why would they withdraw their appeal , leaving the test results unpublishable by law. This is someone’s dignity, identity , honesty and career on the line, most people would welcome the opportunity to get international validation that their claim was just.

The reason the boxers were tested was because there were questions about their sex, presumably steaming from opponents who felt something was wrong when they fought them - it was not something that was never questioned until they were banned, they were banned because questions resulted in them being tested.

One of the difficulties in the boxing case was that the athlete had always competed as a woman and had been on the circuit for some time with no issues raised. Won some fights, lost some fights. Was banned last year and suddenly this year the punch is too hard, the opponents are scared, etc. What was it that actually changed about this athlete's situation? She was banned in 2023 by the Russian-led international boxing federation for allegedly failing an unspecified gender test. There is no specific evidence of XY chromosomes that has actually been published and much of the 'information' about this boxer is rumour and speculation. She is not trans and may or may not be intersex depending on what you read.

I have known dancers to not have started periods when expected due to constant training. But the thing is, they DID start periods. It was not an endless puberty suppression. They also developed breasts although they were small until they then started periods.

I have known olympic swimmers who have been chosen for the Olympics at 15, I have known international level female hockey players for under 16s, they might have had delayed starts, but they DID start periods. I think there are some myths around female bodies, puberty and sports. I also have known an international male champion gymnast who had delayed aspects of puberty. He told me he grew a foot after he stopped training so hard but he had gone through other aspects of puberty.

I also think that in many instances, male people who have DSDs who experience virilisation at puberty start heavy training for sports after reaching puberty. Sure they played sports prior to puberty. But heavy training? I do question that.

We can have empathy for the people who are experiencing these hard decisions. Because they are hard decisions. And the news is very hard to hear. And I think that there also seems to be too many people who are supposed to care about the wellbeing of these athletes who act counter to what would be showing care for them.

I blame heavily invested national sport's bodies in this as well. It is ultimately harmful to the athlete and the female athletes impacted to continue to push acceptance of male people, those who have been through male puberty regardless of whether this is due to a medical condition or an identity, into female sports.

However, again, what is the difference between these male athletes and those athletes who have been tested for other things and found that they either don't qualify for a category they believed they should compete in, or who could not even keep competing due to that life changing health discovery?

@viques absolutely. When I have mentioned on previous threads that DSD males are being sought out and exploited I have been called out on it and told I must give proof, otherwise I'm being racist. The problem lies in the fact that this would need an admission from someone that they are gaming the system and those involved still claim the athletes in question are female (even when the medical evidence shows they are not) so they are hardly likely to confirm they have known since before they began competing.

They wouldn't be female.

Exactly this, and moreover there is , I believe, a huge level of collusion between sports bodies, coaches and - sadly - parents who I think are persuaded that going along with the “born a girl” story will lead to financial reward and security in cultures where having a child with a DSD, who will never fit societal norms of marriage, parenthood etc is very difficult . For coaches and sports bodies a DSD athlete offers ( or offered) the chance of international sporting success and national pride ,without the difficulty and expense of discovering and nurturing female talent in an acceptable way.

Sadly all three groups seem to forget the mental and emotional stress that the DSD athlete will go through, as well as intrusive national and international attention for all time since the internet never forgets. It is exploitation.

Absolutely, all sports above a certain level should instigate simple check swab test to check eligibility. But I do not for one moment believe that the likes of the Olympic boxers, Caster Semenya etc have reached the standard they have without the slightest clue that they could be DSD males.

I can't swallow the story that a 'female' competing at elite level without having started 'her' periods by late teens hasn't raised questions/ prompted investigations. We aren't talking tiny, under developed 12 year old gymnasts here. Coaches at that level should be all over any such issues because if it's not a DSD it could be a serious underlying medical condition.

Look at the away from competition dress and behaviour of IK, CS etc and nothing about it post puberty age suggests they believed themselves to be normal girls/women going about their lives believing themselves to be female. While there are male DSD that might go unsuspected until much later they are ones that don't result in signs of male puberty. Why was IK talent spotted 'out playing football' in a society in which young women don't play outside?
Why was CS at the beach in nothing but swim shorts?
A DSD diagnosis is without a doubt shocking and hard to come to terms with but plenty of aspiring athletes face devastating diagnosis of illness/ injury and have to adapt to that reality be that leaving sport completely, changing sport, accepting that they won't compete at the very top level or having to adapt to para sport.