Am I a cf for asking a farmer this question?

As a landowner. You are a CF.

youd get a no from me!

I've just come back from a walk too. Public footpath blocked by thick undergrowth and stinging nettles. The farmer hates the PROW so he does all he can to prevent access. He's a bit of an arsehole really.

There wasn't a single piece of litter apart from those plastic seed bags strewn around.

The other farm that you gave to go through on the other hand couldn't be more welcoming; they are lovely people and they keep everything pristine.

It's reasonable to o ask, so long as there's no livestock to chase or crops to trample, and you are careful with walls and gates, then it's reasonable to ask. Of course it's also reasonable for him to refuse - but the fact of you asking rather than assuming will be appreciated...

@BurntBroccoli I thought I was pretty clear that all dumpers of litter and fly-tippers are arseholes. Because they are. You should respect your surroundings and not chuck litter wherever you are. It's basic good manners.

There is very good countryside access in the UK, once you're in the countryside itself. I've just come back from a walk along local footpaths. Footpath maps are available online, for free. Disconnection is a combination of urban life, upbringing and lack of interest.

And no, it should not be a law that dogs should be on lead on public footpaths. Mine have just had a 40 minute walk. They were on lead for about three minutes of that because we were on a lane. People need to train their bloody dogs.

Edited to add, I do agree with you that education might be a good idea, though I'm not sure how much good it would do.

As with all walks of life there are people who respect the countryside and others who don't. For those who do, there should not be laws or regs passed to stop them being in the countryside, and where safe to do so, have their dogs off the lead.

I would much rather educate people, and as with this thread, farmers be allowed to choose if their land can be walked on in addition to public footpaths.

@EdithStourton

Perhaps it should be made law that dogs need to be on a lead on public footpaths and public spaces.

Yes - a lot of people are completely disconnected from nature and of course they won't respect it if they've never been educated on the subject.
I don't think your tone of "they're all arseholes" helps.

No, they're behaving like this because some people are arseholes.

I regularly pick up cans and empty plastic packets when walking the dogs on the local playing fields and in the woods. There is often a lot of litter (and sometimes puke) on the streets of our local small town. None of that is due to people being 'disconnected'. It's because they are arseholes.

It's free to deposit things like fridges and old clothes at our local tip, yet guess what gets fly-tipped in farm gateways and at the end of dead-end lanes? (Clue: most of it isn't builder's rubble.) It's not because of cost. It's because some people are arseholes.

As for dogs worrying sheep...
Why should a farmer have to go to the expense and effort of fencing off footpaths to keep dogs away from his sheep? I have dogs. They're stock-safe (because I've trained them) but they're also on-lead near stock. And how do you propose farmers fence off their sheep on open land like the moors? How well do you think cattle-strength electric fences would go down with walkers whose children or dogs accidentally touch them?

People trash the countryside for all sorts of reasons, and ignorance is only one of them. If people are disconnected from anything, it's good manners and consideration for others. Why they're like that is a whole other discussion.

@FarmersWifeOf30Years

These all suggest that a robust Countryside Code should be taught early in schools and there should be compulsory lessons in nature and conservation.
People are behaving like this as they have no affection for the land as they are so disconnected from it as so much is off limits for them.

Fly tipping is a problem due to builders having to pay to dispose of waste. Perhaps councils need to think about this issue.

Temporary electric fencing would solve the problem of dogs worrying sheep; where I live that's what all the farmers do. Same with cows, the right of way could be electric fenced off do it protects humans and the animals.

For the record, I'm not involved in farming. I just know a fair few farmers, and work my dog on a local shoot.

The vast majority of farmers do not keep horses. A lot of farms do host shoots. Drives tend to be through woodland (which hasn't been felled because either the land isn't suitable for crops or grazing, or because it's being managed for timber), through sugar beet (a commercial crop), through songbird mixes, over rough grass (not ploughed because the land isn't suitable, might have been cut for hay/silage) and over grazing. Land isn't kept exclusively for pheasant shooting: shooting and cropping/grazing co-exist.

And some people who visit my area are, sadly, often abysmal in how they behave on footpaths. One near us has become an unofficial picnic spot, complete with loads of litter, and people tormenting the cattle and abusing the farmer. Cyclists cut wire rather than lift their bikes over stiles. Dozens of sheep were killed a few years ago by out of control dogs.

Consequently, farmers are not keen on random people walking about on their land.

A dog in a rural area often has less opportunities to explore off lead than a dog in a town with public parks etc.

The problem with the countryside is the land is all owned & the people farming on it are often not the ones who own it.

We are sheep farmers & don't own any of the land we farm on. It's all short term grazing we rent. We run out of grass and we move & someone else may move on short term. Some fields may have 4 tenants across the year & none of them own the land.

We always refuse dog walker requests unless it's someone we know (our vet for example or the hunt or fallen stock man) theres too much risk - biosecurity, public liability etc.

An empty field of grass may be for hay. We have constant battles with public accessing our hay fields 'just letting the dog run free as there's no livestock' 'isnt it nice for DC to run around' or even having bloody picnics in our 'empty Field'
We pay for it every winter when the silage & haylage is less than we hoped & what we have is peppered with dried dog shit (deadly to our livestock) plastic rubbish, poo bags etc which have the potential to kill our animals.

We are farmers mainly sheep. We don't own the land we farm on. We also have sheep on for part of the year, hay is taken off at some point and beef cattle at other points. Every few years a crop of Fodder beets goes on some of it so you actually have 3 tenants using the fields at different points so all will have different views on it .

We always say no to any dog walker requests as we have never found someone who genuinely keeps their dog on a lead and picks up poo 100% of the time, there are also insurance implications if you have public access.

Also be aware that there is a blue tongue outbreak and already restrictions in some areas so livestock owners are not going to want anyone going anywhere near their fields. Any movement affects biosecurity on farms even outside of an outbreak & farmers have to show good biosecurity practices which are unlikely to involve public access.

There are also fields that look unused but may be in stewardship/subsidies which restrict what you can farm & do but it doesn't mean public have the right to access.

Once you've moved in & got a good relationship with the land owners and farmers it may be worth asking - we wouldn't be offended if someone asked but there are many good reasons why they would refuse. How would you feel if a neighbour asked if their DC or dogs could play in your garden? But if the house purchase depends on Access then unfortunately it's a very definite no as land tenants change, subsidies change etc so you could have access this week but then suddenly be refused next week.

Whilst it's good to hear that there is no litter or damage on public footpaths by you, that has sadly not been our experience. Over the 30 years I've been on the farm off the top of my head we've had -
Sheep maimed & killed by walkers dogs.
Husband physically & verbally assaulted for asking people to stick to footpath.
Our vehicle parked on our land whilst we checked another area of the farm deliberately damaged costing £1000s to repair.
Gates taken off their hinges/padlocks broken open to let livestock out causing hours of work and stress to animals to sort out plus damage to crops.
Padlocks glued so we can't get through
Youngsters using fields to sit and drink in leaving smashed vodka bottles and setting fire to a tree.
Dog chasing young cattle until they panicked and smashed through fence.
Child setting fire to a standing field of crop at harvest time.
Youngsters hurling rocks at tractor driver until one landed in cab
Youngsters riding quad bikes/motor bikes through crops
Youngster opening back of grain trailer and letting all the corn out.
Dumping of rubbish. Latest, this week, have used footpath to empty out bags of builders rubble which we will now have to clear and dispose of.
Going on land at night to shoot.
And of course tonnes of dog shit.
Not suggesting that OP would have any intention of doing any of this of course! But just want to show the behaviour that some farmers have to contend with and why they are reluctant to encourage more access.

Would you let your neighbours use your garden? That’s basically what you want of the farmer. It’ll be a firm no. Footpaths are a pain for landowners (rubbish, gates left open, scaring livestock, trampling crops etc) and so a farmer isn’t going to put himself in that position voluntarily.

"National Trust do allow access to their land 'For ever, for everyone' is their motto"

They are becoming more militant when there are footpaths across their land, which they should not attempt to stop people using. Anyone local to a NT property near Worcester, there are numerous public footpaths which go straight through, yet the NT have added signs on all the gates which say to go onto their property you must pay - this is totally wrong. A friend knew they could walk straight through and was chased by a NT volunteer telling them they couldn't.

The Countryside Act allows people to walk around the edge of fields - no it doesn't, the only time this is "allowed" is if cattle are in a field which, especially if you have dogs, may not be safe to walk through, the advice is to walk along the edge of the adjacent fields or other sides of hedges, walls, fences if possible.

There are plenty of conflicts, some in the courts. Population density is much lower and the availability of open land and forestry together means less pressure on lowland farms. There is also a much much smaller network of public rights of way footpaths so less practical access across farmland under cultivation.

@LongtailedTitmouse

Scotland seems to manage okay? They have set up a comprehensive code that works

www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/managing-access-your-land

Whilst I don’t mind taking my dogs in the car if it’s wet - they dry off a bit in their crate - I think it’s crap to have to do it for a 2 minute drive - bad for the environment and a lot of faff.
However, check The Countryside Act; I’m pretty sure you can walk around field edges but equally could be wrong.
I, and many others, walk around local arable fields with no recourse. Obviously the dogs aren’t allowed to damage crops.
i think it’s worth asking especially as your purchase is dependent on his reply.

No, I am talking about security of food supply.

Its just a question - not cheeky at all!

What would be cheeky is walking your dogs on the farmer’s land if he says no.

You can only ask!

Agriculture is only 0.6% of GDP.

A lot of the land that farmers own is for their own private use such as pheasant shooting in woodland (hence they don't want the public in there) or keeping horses.

On public footpaths near me, there is no litter or people trampling crops. Are you thinking about what happened in lockdown where there was insufficient public access available as it turned out for everyone? People were forced along narrow 2 feet wide paths in restricted and too few areas. If there were more paths the land may have had less of a hammering as people would have used different routes.

@OrwellianTimes

If you look at old County Series maps there are hundreds of miles of footpaths and lanes that are no longer accessible to the public. A few different reasons but mainly Acts of Enclosure (which were one grabs from the public) and in the 1950s, the Parish Councils being in charge of the mapping process leading to the definitive map. A lot of landowners and farmers were actually on the Parish councils and probably didn't record any paths through their land conveniently.

As a start, we need to get these Lost Paths back on the definitive map.

National Trust do allow access to their land 'For ever, for everyone' is their motto.

I do think there is a disconnect in this country with how food is produced. People seem to view agricultural land as parkland they should be able to use for recreation, building houses on, or banks of solar panels. Agricultural land needs much heavier protection or it won’t just be the rocketing cost of food that becomes an issue, it will be the basic availability of it.

The Vast majority of royal estates and national trust land IS used for farming, mostly by tenant farmers trying to earn a living. Those white things dotted over hills? They are sheep being farmed on upland farms. National trust land not farmed are generally nature reserves and are open to public to visit in line with nature conservation considerations (eg protecting breeding birds). Royal shooting estates in Scotland (eg Balmoral estate) are already free to access.

Just walk against oncoming traffic and you will be fine