Did women used to enjoy being catcalled?

I really hate this idea that women's opinions about sexual harassment and assault are somehow worth less if we've been the victims of these crimes. No one tries to silence the victims of any other crime in this way.

No one went around accusing the victims of road traffic accidents or muggings of not being "objective". It's only this one set of crimes, overwhelmingly carried out by men against women, that the victims have to shut up about. This is not a coincidence.

Exactly @MaidOfAle it always makes me feel like prey, not a person.

Many on this thread have higher self-esteem than to want the validation of strange men.

It's a "compliment" in the same way that my cat staring at a mouse is a compliment to the mouse.

I'm in my mid 60s and I've never had a problem with catcalling or wolf whistling. I always took it as a compliment, and it gave me a little inner lift. My friends all felt the same way.

I think your friend was right. As an older woman now it makes me quite sad to think young teenage girls have developed this level of insight on this behaviour from men.

I'm obviously clueless as to what you're saying as you keep dismissing what I'm saying as wrong.

The majority of women on the thread did not appreciate street harassment. Some said they didn't mind.

Again, you're referring to street harassment as 'interaction'. Shouting 'Get your tits out.' or 'Don't get many of them to the pound.' isn't 'interaction'. Interaction is trying to engage with someone, hopefully with respect.

You seem to be suggesting (and will no doubt tell me this isn't what you're saying) that street harassment was acceptable at a time when strangers interacted more.

It was certainly more normalised than it is now. It was more part of everyday life for women and girls, but society was considerably more openly sexist.

However that's not to say that a respectful encounter with someone you're attracted to isn't going to be welcome, or the human race would have ended.

I’m 38 so haven’t voted.
But I remember as a teen my friend saying “they’re doing it so that when you turn around they can laugh at you for assuming you’re the one they’re whistling at. So never turn round.”

I therefore associate it with paranoia and humiliation. Not sure if that is due to the whistling or my friend’s take on it. Probably both I guess.

The porridge ad reminded me how in the past, some women used to lift up men's kilts (without asking). Imo that's worse than a wolf whistle. A single passing wolf whistle, not sustained shouting.

Maybe I'm in the wrong and need to reassess my views, I don't know. I should say, if it's relevant, I differentiate between a single wolf whistle as opposed to continued and/or aggressive and intimidating shouting. I am, as I've said, though perhaps not able to be objective on this thread and topic because my views are influenced by experience of serious physical sexual assault.

Definitely though sexual harassment (and sexual assault), and what constitutes it, is an issue affecting both women and men.

The article below doesn't only discuss lifting up a kilt. It discusses jokes from women about "what's under your kilt". As on this thread, with some women not minding or being flattered by wolf whistles, the men have varied views. Some find it offensive for someone to joke about it, others think it's fine.

In a post shared thousands of times before being deleted, he said: "Happy Sunday to everyone except the woman who lifted up my kilt in a crowded bar last night without my permission. Imagine if I'd done that with her dress."

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sexism-row-erupts-after-woman-26319164

And FWIW< I like to interact and chat, but there are a good number of people now who don't - they resent for example if the grocery clerk tries to chat, even if it doesn't slow things down. They see that as an unasked for social interaction, and an imposition.

That's not what I am saying. (And it wasn't always unwanted, we can see quite a few women did not think that, so it seems to have been mixed.)

There is a difference between not wanting a social interaction, and thinking that having social interactions is something that we need to have agreed to ahead of time.

The latter is a new idea and it has really changed how people interact socially.

As teens, 14/15yo me and my friend used to put on a short skirt and go and hang out by the main road, specifically to see how many hoots and catcalls we could get.

By the time I was 18yo, I hated walking past a building site.

I disagree having experienced it in both the 70/80/90s and a few years ago. It was always an unwanted social interaction.

As a teenager it was mortifying. As a young adult, aggressive, humiliating and intimidating. It wasn't just street harassment that was awful, there was a lot of harassment in pubs and clubs as well. Men grabbing at you, trying to 'interact' with you and getting aggressive when you weren't interested.

I haven't noticed people being less interested in social interaction. I still chat about the weather while waiting for the bus. I have noticed street harassment being less socially acceptable.

@TempestTost I don't remember the porridge oats ad but just googled it.

Back in the 90s he starred in a series of ads for the breakfast food, one saw him emerging NAKED from a river, another saw a gust of wind lift his kilt and flash what was underneath.

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-when-the-hound-from-game-of-thrones-was-this-super-sexy-scot-selling-porridge-oats-5965302/

(Decided to google Nick Kamen too - and sad to find out he died a couple of years ago. He was only 59.)

Or the porridge oats one, I think he was in a river?

The thread is about how women in the 70s and 80s felt about wolf whistling.

Several people commented on the idea of it as an unasked for social interaction - "forced". With the idea being that an unsought social interaction is an imposition.

I said that I didn't think that argument would really have been used in the 70s and 80s, and reflects a much more recent attitude to social interaction in general. Women in the past didn't necessarily like that kind of behaviour, but not for that reason.

So true. But on MN you are meant to be oblivious to anyone's physical attractiveness and instead look beyond to the beauty of the souls.

I just know when DH first approached me in a club he was attracted to the sweetness of my inner spirit.

Added to my previous post, another famous advert was the Nick Kamen undressing in the launderette advert. I think it was for Levis jeans.

He was, I understand, considered a young good-looking (male) heartthrob. The advert wouldn't have cast an older overweight man in that role.

Isn't that just human nature (female as well as male)?

What society tends to consider conventially good looking young males get more attention than what society considers less aesthetically pleasing men - overweight balding older etc.

I remember the diet coke ad, where a group of female office workers giggly ogled a young attractive male window cleaner. The ad wouldn't have cast an overweight older builders crack man in the role

Shallow and superficial, I suppose, but then passing attraction tends to be. It's not the same as a long lasting relationship built on love for the person, rather than their looks.

You're making the argument that wolf whistling and street harassment were part of interaction in public. Otherwise I have no idea what your post has to do with the thread.

My experiences show just how shallow minded some men can be.

I used to be slim.
Received wolf whistles.

Went up to 17 stones (illnesses and having babies)
No wolf whistles.

Lost 7 stones (diet & exercise)
Received wolf whistles.

Put 2 stone back on.
A few wolf whistles.

Slimmed again.
Many wolf whistles.

Pathetic.........

This actually has nothing to do with what I said.

I don't see it as the same. But I do see it as part of the general idea that our bodies are open season for commentary. That somehow they do not belong to us.
It's an emotive subject for me, too, because I experienced the opposite. Being barked at, told how ugly I was, etc. The assumed right to pass comment on a stranger's attractiveness or otherwise is why I think it's not on.

I am, btw, a rape survivor. And I think attitudes to rape in this country are appalling still, and whilst I take your point about the harm of equating the two, I still think they are linked. It's all part of the attitude that my body is the property of other people. It doesn't mean a wolf-whistler is a rapist, but the long-held attitude of 'suck it up, it's just a bit of fun' is all part of relinquishing ownership of my own body. My right to not have to endure attention I do not want. If that makes sense.

What a bizarre argument!

The last time I was cat called, he said, "Nice minge." It's not antisocial of me not to acknowledge his disgusting comment and flirt with him.

Before that a man said, "Bet she likes it up the arse." Again, apparently I'm antisocial for not striking up a conversation.

It used to be seen as completely fine, normal, and good that we had all kinds of interactions in society with strangers.

Read the thread. Read how many women hate being harassed in public and never thought it was fine even though it was normalised.

Not liking harassment is not the same as not talking to someone about the weather in a queue.

The focing people into an exchange thing is interesting.

I think this is part of a huge social change that goes well beyond wolf whistles.

It used to be seen as completely fine, normal, and good that we had all kinds of interactions in society with strangers. People used to drop in to friends and family unannounced, there were significant expectations for all around hospitality, and public interactions were not only common but valued.

We now have a lot of people who see a phone call or someone knowing at the door as a real imposition. Neighbourhood FB groups say "some strange person knocked at my door, OMG!" People feel that any expectation they talk to a stranger in a line or at the bank or whatever is too much.

I don't think that even those of us who hated all wolf whistles, or even flirting in general, would have likely made quite that kind of argument back in the 70s or 80s. The idea that you could be to "forcing" people to interact and that was a wrong thing to do just was not mainstream or accepted widely. It would probably be seen as quite antisocial and anti-community.

@ObelixtheGaul I admit it's an emotive topic for me (sexual assault) and perhaps I need to read over your points again.

Just to say. I think maybe my previous posts weren't clear or maybe you've misinterpreted them.

I don't wolf whistle anyone. My friends and I did I the past when young and giggly. We're older and a bit 'mumsy' now (looks, and attitude/behaviour) so no longer do that.

In the past, we (men and women) didn't mind doing or receiving it at the time. However if it's true that the majority today say they don't like it, then obviously it's best if people, male or female, no longer do it.

In the past, at least in my area where I lived, the generally accepted view was it was harmless (that does not include groping or harassment which was never ok). If the general view has changed, than I appreciate people should respect that and stop doing it.

I still don't accept it's comparable to sexual assault including groping. However, although I don't wish to see the two imo separate issues grouped together (for reasons I and a few other posters have outlined) if it's not something most people today want, then I guess that's a modern change people might need to go along with.

It's perfectly possible to do that without grouping it in with sexual assault. That's obviously just my opinion though.