"Stop being a Karen"

Because lots of people say bitch is the same but it isn’t.

According to whom?

Would everyone be okay if there was another word for this category of white woman?

Is the anger because it’s someone’s name or the defining of that type of person in itself?

Because lots of people say bitch is the same but it isn’t.

I don’t think it’s intended use was know your place as in you’re bottom of the pile, I think it was know your place as in you’re actually on the top.

For example, the middle class white woman in the restaurant who complains loudly about the ‘unacceptable’ service from the working class non-white waitress. There is no awareness or care for the effects of her actions on the waitress.

The let me see your manager memes struck a cord to many.

But I agree that it is used wrongly now. And that it’s not exactly nice for people genuinely called Karen.

That’s horrible. I don’t suppose anyone called him out on it?

Yes, I don't know about the US, but in the UK it is definitely a working class name (based on my experience as a WC woman). That may be why it has caught on among white people in the UK - the class snobbery element adds to its connotations.

The US class system is very different to the UK. There, "middle class" appears to be used to mean what we would describe as WC or lower-MC in the UK.

The patriarchy has a wonderful way of twisting men's bad behaviour into attributes. At one time, calling a man a pimp was a compliment. And we all know how the old dog gets around...

Thanks for sharing this - it's interesting.

True. And it has no class associations that I'm aware of. Maybe because exploitation of women cuts across all classes.

I've also not heard it be used as an insult... more as a factual description.

Me too 🤣

I do think, however, that POC have a right to their own slang, including derogatory names for racists.

The issue here is that this particular word is not being used mostly by POC to describe white women weaponising their race privilege. Instead it has been appropriated by white misogynists, and is being used to mean any woman who steps out of line (as opposed to in an anti-racist context).

I strongly object to that usage, and that is the usage that I am currently seeing most commonly in the UK. I think that any discussion about this word has to recognise and address its current usage, not just its origins (which are valid). Language evolves, and we can't ignore that.

@Lizzie67384 absolutely and I'm agreeing with you. I'm quite comfortable doing this also

A John is a client of sex workers.

And to be fair you will meet rude, entitled and disrespectful twats in all walks of life. Funny how we only have a name attached to one demographic.

I fully agree with this. The names suggested by posters on this thread as a male equivalent to Karen were pretty much all WC names (e.g. Darren). Because names carry such strong gender/ class / ethnicity / age markers, it's pretty much impossible for an insult based on a name to avoid those classist etc. connotations.

The only neutral(ish) examples I can think of are names like John, but no-one is going to base an insult on John, are they? The class snobbery is part of what makes the insult effective in the first place.

I really don’t understand what the issue is with complaining if you have bad service?

I found a hair in my food, do I just say nothing and continue to eat my meal? 🤢

Also imagine men would be lauded for being assertive

Winds me the fuck up and agree that now (recognising its roots are the use of it to address a racist whiten woman) it's used to put a middle age, considered irrelevant, woman back in her box.

And actually there are times when we all may need a quick word with a manager and it's perfect possible to do this in a polite, courteous and discreet way yet apparently all other demographics are allowed to do this yet ladies like myself can't.

I think it’s because women in their 40s/50s tend to be more confident than younger women, have more life experiences etc, more likely to have better jobs… whereas 60s/70s is retirement age, I’m guessing SOME men think they are less attractive etc

Yes, but two things:
1 It doesn’t serve to get them to stop, where calling someone Karen is saying shut up and pipe down, women your age shouldn’t be complaining about anything, ever. Know your place and be demure
2 Victor Meldrew isn’t a global term like Karen has become

Why is it that women in their 40s and 50s get all the vitriol? Why don’t we get it in our 60s and 70s? Are we somehow less threatening then?

Well, I call old male bores of a similar nature “Victor Meldrews”…so…

(edited by MNHQ)
My partner is Cypriot (white but very tanned skin and a dark beard) got called a ‘p**i’ in a pub last year, I mean honestly I despair at the intelligence of these racists

While I may not object to racist white women being called "Karen" I would object to me being called it since IF we are saying its only applied to racists then isn't that calling me racist?
And how would me politely asking for something or expressing that I was not happy with a service I recieved be in any way racist?
Perhaps the "first Karens" were racist, there is plenty of footage online to support that, although I am pretty sure a lot of it is fake BUT the term is now used to mean any middle aged woman who dares to have an opinion on something, however calmly and politely its expressed

I completely defer to others on this. I obviously don't experience this type of prejudice. Not in any way denying it exists.

It's not the fact that this behaviour exists that's being challenged, it's the lazy labelling of the behaviour with a name held by millions of women most of whom don't behave like that.

I don't think I am being reductive, though.

But beyond all this, Karen is a much broader term than this in the UK - it’s used whenever a woman, often although not exclusively an older woman, asserts herself, regardless of whether she is being unreasonable or not. This is not OK.

I don't disagree with this in the slightest. You will not find any evidence of me disagreeing with this in any of my posts.

The only thing I sought to do was bring back the context and history of this term, as well as the way it continues to be used in racial minority communities, which is an important context. When women say "it is just a replacement for the word bitch"- that may be how they personally have experienced the word. But it completely erases the fact that actually the word Karen was used to describe a particular type of racism, racism which should be acknowledged and addressed amongst white women.

My posts sought to bring that context back into the discussion because it is in my opinion a very important element.