Refugees "visiting home"

Some people from Ukraine have taken the opportunity to live and work in the UK. Not blaming at all if that is what they want and what our rules allow. Some needed that protection as they were from areas Russia has taken over, others did not in my view need it. I have people in my teams still in Ukraine (as there are a lot of skilled IT workers there) who have lived and worked successfully there throughout the whole of the war so far. There is danger, especially on the front line, but not everywhere.

She's not a refugee. Cancel the refugee cheque. The whole premise of this thread is wrong.

What did you think constituted objectionable stereotyping?

They don’t have Refugee status. They’re either on ‘Homes for Ukraine’ visas, or a family visa. HfU are much more common. On a HfU visa they can study, work, and have free rights to travel just as we do. Going back to Ukraine does not result in their visas being revoked as it would for an asylum seeker. I doubt this girl would be on a student visa. If she was she’d have to pay her uni tuition. On a HfU visa she would get a student loan, just like us.

Newsflash: "Ukrainians" are a diverse bunch of people. Some are well off, others are poor. Some have family who volunteered to fight on day one, others are doing all they can to avoid being drafted. Some have elderly relatives who may not be here next year even if the war stops.

Imagine that the UK was under constant threat of air raid attack and 20% of the women and children decided to get away to Spain, which took them in. But the air raids are spaced out a bit and sometimes no bombs hit London for a month. Among all those women and children, are there really none who would want to go back and hug their family, even with a degree of risk? Look around at your own family and neighbours. You can probably guess (maybe not accurately, but let's hope we don't have to find out) who would go, who would stay, who would go but come back to see their Nan, who would fight, who would run, and who would go and do some target spotting for Putin because "I don't agree with everything he does, obviously, but he's very solid on the woke nonsense". 🙄

Yes, totally incompatible with being a refugee. We've had threads on this with Ukraine before. Extremely common. As is people flying home for the dentist etc.

We're all so stupid we actually know nothing about the country and think the whole place is under siege but that's not the case.

Do you understand? Do you have to start your argument in such a patronising manner.

Maybe you could learn better ways to debate.

The men in the Russian army are Russian men.

If they came here as immigrants or refugees it would be unacceptable to stereotype them as rapists.

I am not arguing with documented reports of rape but I am noting how the language around rape changes according to the status of the male.

Haven't read the full thread, but Ukrainians here on the Ukrainian visa scheme are not refugees. It's a specific visa category which was basically an 'up yours' to Russia. They can come and go as they please. We haven't yet decided what we are doing with the individuals who used it, but there was certainly no intention for them to lose their status if they went home for a visit.

An asylum seeker is making a specific claim that they are in personal danger in their country, and obviously it should void their claim if they are then travelling back to that country. Although I am sure it happens because our records are not good enough to track it.

(Edited for spelling)

THIS! Catch yourself on @Notanotherkendoll

Poor lass! Being badmouthed purely for having the temerity to want to see her family.

Stop the world I want to get off!

OP said this girl is a studying & uni age. So her visa might actually be a student visa. If so she can leave the country without invalidating it. Generally you start out on a refugee visa and then upgrade to other visas or get on the path to naturalise the longer you stay.

life is unpredictable- no one knew how far the Russians would get on day one did they? We still don’t. The Ukrainians may get bombed out of their house tomorrow or it may never happen. Those that fled have papers and somewhere to stay here. It may be appear to be safe to visit home but equally a bomb may land on them when they get there. It’s fraught with uncertainty and danger. If I could nip and see my family who may or may not get attacked at any minute I would risk it - put your feet in their shoes for a minute and really think about this OP

Sounds like her entire family are displaced by conflict. Some are displaced internally and some displaced in other countries.

Ukraine is a huge country and the conflict means that parts of it are under Russian occupation, parts are under regular bombardment and other parts are only at risk of bombardment. None of them are what you'd call 'safe'. It's a complex and dynamic situation, as are most conflict zones.

My own family were displaced by the London Blitz. They did eventually return to London during the war, but it wasn't 'safe' per se, they just chose to leave rural Gloucestershire and return to the East End. They were still massively at risk. But as adults, that's what they chose to do. They did then have to leave the East End for Kent because - while it was okay for a while - it wasn't viable for them to live in a flattened East End.

Just because someone has chosen to visit their relatives in their home country it doesn't mean it's safe or viable for them to return to live there any time soon.

Either you simply can't conceive of a place which is safe enough for a visit, but not safe enough to live in, or you are being disingenuous.

One example: a gay man has received refugee status because homosexuality is punishable by death. He cannot live in such a country, but he could visit if he doesn't engage in homosexual activity.

However, the Home Office can remove refugee status if you return to your home country.

Of course.You cant just hop on a plane back as it totally invalidates your claim.

Today in Lviv

You can't be serious?

They are people, exactly like you are. If it isn’t viable for you it isn’t viable for them.

Should they raise families there? See their daughters unable to go to school? How bad do things actually have to be for you consider someone a refugee?

Which country is he from, just out of curiosity? I realise that’s an outing question, and quite nosey, so you of course don’t need to answer, but I’m just curious.

The Homes for Ukraine scheme is not a refugee status, it is just leave to remain until it is safe to return to live. She is not a refugee, she is a migrant.

This has me thinking, surely if it is safe enough for her to return home to visit, it's safe enough for her to move back?

Hah no it doesn’t mean that at all. Think of all the MSF doctors in Ukraine and Gaza who are “visiting” to work in hospitals for months at a time. They’re not safe, it’s not safe but they go because they are dedicated to humanitarian work.

Going back to a county a war to check on family who cannot or won’t flee similarly doesn’t automatically make it safe to move back to live. A lot of refugees will do several visits to gauge how safe things have become before deciding to move back to the country.

As you said too, she isn’t “going back home” as her home city was destroyed so she would either be an internally displaced person or a refugee- both are essentially homeless and are trying to rebuild their lives.

Because they are working and earning money like the rest of us.

First comment has it. Impossible to understand if you're not in that situation. I'm not sure why you would feel anything about this girl travelling back, other than sympathy.

I have a few Ukrainian friends, some who moved before the invasion and some who left after, most have gone back to see friends/family since. They're unsafe when they do so; they'd be unsafe if they moved back, because their country is under attack, but some Ukrainians have moved back. They often feel guilty knowing the people back home live (and die) in that unsafety every day. From my friends' experiences, life does not go on as normal and that's a dangerous idea to spread - people may be doing some of the same activities, but I believe there's still a curfew, there are still air raid sirens and their friends and acquaintances are being killed. It fundamentally changes you to be living in that situation. The comparison to the Blitz is a good one.

There are differences between different groups of refugees and people under humanitarian protection; some countries are much more difficult to enter logistically and the situations in each country are different.

Yes I experienced a Ukrainian lady complaining about the wait to see an ophthalmologist in the UK so she just went back to Ukraine to get it sorted. she said she would be back and she was. This is absolutely not the case for other actual refugees/asylum seekers as they do not have the same status as Ukrainians- fair enough Ukraine is closer to the UK and they are in Europe.

Safe enough to go back 7 killed in Russian attack on Lviv