AIBU in expecting my teen boys to have tidy rooms

I don't think monetary sanctions or incentives are necessarily the way to go. I am increasingly a believer that household chores are massively important in theory and read the study from Harvard that this results in happier, more successful adults. It's harder in practice and I fail regularly. It's more being ground down than laziness, that and picking battles. My teen boys have tidy rooms but I could just have easily got messy ones and I wouldn't pick that battle over the overall war. I think we are all just doing what we can to raise happy, independent, thoughtful and decent children.... and it's really hard!!

I do remember a thread by a man, almost exactly like this a while ago.

Am I the only one getting a tad suspicious of the motives behind this thread?

For me it was the way he had to come on and tell everyone that his way was the right way and anyone that has done it differently, he has lectured them on how they are wrong.

As I previously said, he thinks getting a teen to tidy is brand new, he's cracked it and no one else has.

I found it amusing though that he is so proud they can tidy up but then he pays a woman to actually clean and goes on holiday and so proud of the tidying he does so that a different woman can come in and clean for him

He comes across as one of those men that expecting praise and fawning for doing something that women are expected to do and for doing things that anyone should be doing in order to live in a smooth running household.

If a woman started a post about this, she would have her arse handed to her, why are we supposed to fawn over this man doing and teaching his kids the bare minimum? All they do is tidy, he hasnt taught them to clean, only taught them it doesn't matter because you can pay a woman to clean.

I'm with you. We're trying to prepare for a similar level with our two primary age children. MIL and FIL raised their three boys to be involved in household chores from very young and though all three can be irritating in their own ways, neither I nor their partners have had to domesticate them! DH and I are keen to raise our children to be functional adults, and taking care of the home environment is part of that.
Also, you want to pay your cleaner to clean, not to tidy up first.

Op has certainly touched some nerves here. Totally bizarre, his posts are fairly inoffensive and completely sensible imo.

Imo I think some people just don't like the fact that:
a) He's a man
b) He has kids with nice tidy rooms
c) He can afford a cleaner

I mean, how dare he.

Interesting to read though, you'd swear he'd posted about his kitten-stomping fetish 😂

But everyone on here has said they expect a tidy room and sometimes it's ok to not always be tidy and that they all expect their teen to tidy their mess and deal with any subsequent consequences arising from the mess.

However OP has implied we are all doing it wrong by allowing our teens to close their bedroom doors and by not forcing them to tidy up. He even said we are raising mysoginistic boys by allowing this happen (the irony of him making his teen boys tidy a room and him keeping a tidy house so that he can pay a woman to clean it isn't lost on me either)

What people are disagreeing with is how he is insistent that his way is the correct way, no ifs or buts, that classroom rules have to be applied at home, that shutting doors and allowing teens autonomy is wrong and that brain development is irrelevant.

OP had a cleaner to clean his children’s rooms.

DS14 is a messy one with bits of computers and things he's made and 3D printing stuff all over the place. DS16 is a neat freak and it's the tidiest room in the house. He's always taking the hoover up there (and dumping it in the spare room so he doesn't tidy that!)

I haven’t read all replies but I’m with you OP.

I expect my teens, boys and girls, to keep their respective rooms clean and tidy. Obviously, they sometimes have to be reminded to do this but my view is we have a nice house, they have a nice lifestyle and in return, they tidy up after themselves and keep their rooms tidy.

I have ND children with executive function issues. (The apples may well have not fallen far from the tree...)

Food largely remains in the kitchen to avoid mess. Clean food (that leaves little mess, won't spill, fragment, go sticky, rot etc) can leave the kitchen but evidence needs to be tidied away. That takes care of hygiene.

If they don't clear their clean laundry basket into their drawers, then they obviously have plenty and it's not my priority to wash. If dirty clothes are not in the basket, then I can't find them to wash them.
I'm not fussed if things are cluttery. There is little harm that will come from that.
Occasionally DS (11) will have a tidying session of his own accord and that is far more beneficial to his development than being micromanaged.

There is not a universal standard of tidy. The range of functionally tidy is wide.

I need visual prompts. Out of sight is out of mind. People that put appliances out of sight are not wrong, but if I put things like the toaster or kettle away, I may as well bin them for all the use they'd get. In our house, we need things at point of use.

I once had an idiot employer that believed in the nonsense of "clear desk" policies aka how to be completely disorganised, lose things and get totally sidetracked because you can't keep it grab-able and in sight as a prompt. Stashing items away to appease some random over-zealous tidy standard just means it builds up into a proper problematic mess when it can no longer be contained.

After a recent deep-clean of the kitchen before going on holiday, it was actually unpleasant in there because of the echo. Minimalism can be very uncomfortable and sterile in the way some people find maximalism too much. Many people find seeing their possessions out openly, much more cosy and relaxing and it's often stimulating and motivating. Teenagers need some leeway to hold a comfortable standard which may not be the same as their parents'. It's also not an indicator of how they will manage their spaces as adults.

Tidiness is not a bad thing, but it's not a moral virtue either, and there's too many people spending their lives feeling shit because they're judged for failing to meet unsustainable standards that don't work for the way their brains work when functioning and good enough will suffice. There's often a load of shit advice being recycled that doesn't work for all ("never leave a room empty-handed" aka, take something and 10 actions later wonder what you were intending half an hour ago)

The irony is that I was nagged at through my teenage years for being messy, but given no proper storage or strategies to do anything more effective than shove it under the bed or pile it in a cupboard and hope it was enough to appease the parent. Naturally as soon as I needed something, it all got pulled out to find it.

Tidyness is one of the few skills in life that we're randomly expected to have and just aquire and are unlikely to actually be taught other than blundering a way towards an outcome.

Having a cleaner in teenage bedrooms doesn't teach anything. I was somehow expected to feel grateful for someone coming in and interfering with my things while I was at school.

Generally, when people start threads, people respond, then to each other, so on and so forth.

Replying to you more than once doesn't mean someone is obsessed with you, bit bizarre you would think that.

And you refer to your set up as "my boys" and "my room" so I thought I'd ask how they are parented at their Moms house or how much time they spend there and whether you really think you've done the work or whether it's actually your ex wife that's done it. The way you refer to it as all your doing also hints at you parenting alone. Nevermind the fact you've come on here and lectured everyone else about how it would all be better if done your way.

Do you apply the same principle to other areas of their lives like homework, times to come home, their phone uses? Because you could. Why don’t they just need to learn to manage those?

And what if the consequence of the messy room is losing school books, chargers etc. Who replaces them?

I am a firm believer in giving teens age appropriate autonomy in line with the responsibility they are prepared to take for it. But this means building up slowly and scaffolding.

Again with the zero sum thinking! If you don't run your teens' life with perfectionism and rigidity, everything else will fall apart. It's nonsense. I raised two now young adults through their teens and absolutely didn't make the demands you make of yours - some mess was allowed, perfection was not required, autonomy grew gradually despite us taking a flexible approach and voila - they turned out fine. They're good with money, look after their stuff, academically successful, hardworking and independent.

You seem to believe there is only one correct way to raise teenagers. This is honestly bullshit.

You sound a bit like your trying to reinvent the wheel.

Everything you've talked about it is how many many many women parent. Yet you seem to think you've got the answer on how to raise a perfect teen who will turn into a perfect adult.

I feel bad because your so proud yet it's nothing new.

How does your ex wife treat them at her house?

The OP pays someone to clean their rooms.

His child doesn't clean though? So how can he be right to lecture us over it?

His children tidy, ready for someone else to come and clean and lose a quid from a healthy allowance if they don't?

It's hardly the hidden secret to parenting teens he seems to think it is.

I'm a bit shocked by the majority of the responses here. I agree with you OP; my kids have to tidy and clean their rooms once a week, or they have treats / gaming times / sleepovers / ... removed. Maybe it's cultural; I'm not from the UK, and my parents would have gone apeshit if I'd have left dirty plates in my rooms or clothes on the floor (or the bed even).

What has that got to do with them not having their own space to feel relaxed in?

I'm going to come at this from a slightly different angle. I was the child of the parent who thought this sort of thing was vitally important. I moved out at 18 and discovered the world doesn't end if you have a floordrobe. I did revel for a bit in the joys of eating in the bedroom of my flat (but always took the dishes straight out).

My boyfriend at the time (who became my DH and, 30 years on, still is) came from a totally different situation. His parents' house was messy af. It was so much more relaxed and I loved it. He came round to my mum's and was scared to sit down lest he creased the sofa.

When he moved in with me in the flat, he was most amused at my cleaning before my mother came round. I genuinely felt that she might go round running a white glove over the shelves. She never actually did, but I still thought she did in her head.

At 50, I'm still not 'mother' tidy, but certainly tidier than the teenaged me when first freed from a world of perpetual neatness. And nobody has died. I grew up thinking being untidy was some dreadful failing. It really isn't. As others have said, there's ground between 'new pin neat' and abject filth.

It's not that your expectations are unreasonable as such. It's just not as important to the future health and wellbeing of your children as you think it is. The world won't end if they aren't tidy. They won't end up living in absolute pigsties for ever if they don't have an immaculate bedroom every week at home.

It IS important they know how to clean, have chores in the rest of the house and appreciate shared spaces. But it's also important they have their own space they feel relaxed in. I never felt I had that at home (one of many reasons I was out of there at 18).

I don't go into my teen's room. She's old enough to clean it herself (no cleaner). She also has an en suite she cleans herself. I know it gets messy, mostly clothes on the floor (she rarely takes food there and has a water bottle). About once a month she does a massive tidy.
My son is no longer at home but he goes through the same thing - no food but clothes are scattered about then he does a tidy.
My room is messier as I tend to pile my clothes on a dresser and over the door rather than hang them up 😬.
I don't ever shut my door and my Dd does only to keep the cats out. I wouldn't go in her room without asking though.
They have art not posters on the walls. I painted it in whatever colour they chose.
I find very tidy people tend to breed very tidy people! My DH was always tidy. Neither child seems to have inherited that!

Also as someone who mentioned executive control earlier, you are completely wrong about the idea that because teens have poor executive functions (they do, proven by research) that they need to be "excused bad habits".

It's not about excusing bad habits. It's about understanding typical development and making some adjustments to supports accordingly.

Some babies learn to walk at 9 or 10 months. Others learn to walk at 18 months. That doesn't mean the ones on the later end of the developmental curve are being "excused the bad habits" of not knowing how to walk. They might need to practice walking holding hands longer, they might need to use balancing toys or they might need supportive shoes.

Your whole attitude to brain development is strange tbh. You seem to regard it as a lack of moral fibre to have a brain that finds some things tricky. It really isn't a moral issue.

This is the approach we had. Never asked much about homework. It got done, and if DS decided to wing it, he found out the consequenses himself. He loved his clothes, and had a colour coordinated wardrobe from the age of 16 (he is now 22). 😅

His dad is a fantastic parent I have to say, they are great friends and even DC’s friends Facetime DH when they are out partying or travelling. I don’t think micromanaging is the answer to everything. Kids are only kids for so long.

No because you have jumped to the extreme position again.
I don't advocate maximum autonomy and minimum responsibility.
I advocate some guided autonomy in zones where there are opportunities and as much responsibility as is age appropriate. For example if they don't take their homework in and get a detention, that's too bad so sad territory.

I am by no means advocating total autonomy. I am not allowing my son to shoot up heroin in his room or store stolen goods. I am not allowing him to bunk off school or stay out til 3 am.

On the other hand, I am not micromanaging whether his bed is made or if he has left his uniform on the floor. He'll soon learn when he has no clean shirt, and it'll be his fault that he doesn't because it's his responsibility to put shirts in the wash. It's his responsibility to put his homework in his bag. There's plenty of responsibility, AND autonomy, AND expectations.