To ask ds to go out more

If he has high expectations on parentin but no boundaries, I wonder what he will be like with a future girlfriend/boyfriend.

He definitely doesn't sound NT. Also this:

So what do I do then tell him to move out and probably never see him again or just tolerate it for a future relationship with him.

Seems incredibly extreme, given that your relationship has been good enough up until now for him to still be living at home. There's no way on earth it should deteriorate to never seeing him again just because of a very normal process of moving out in his mid-20s. I think things have got a bit warped there one way or another and however cagey he may be, you need to start addressing these things and not tolerating them in this state of fear/avoidance/catastrophising.

😂😂

Crikey - that's me screwed

Maybe stupid question, but did it escalate during lockdown or was he like this before?

I don't get why you don't tell him to go away or walk away yourself when he starts laughing and commenting on your phone conversation. I'm with PP, it does sound like you are a bit scared of him.

I have a 17 year old boy and not only would he instinctively know not to behave like this, I would have no problem telling him to back off, keep his opinions to himself, give me some privacy, etc. He does (rather sweetly) come to his younger sisters defence if he feels my approach is off and I have on occasion agreed with him and changed my approach. I am always open to constructive comment or observations. But I have also left him in no doubt that I am the parent and that it is my household to manage, not his.

I mean, it’s odd to call a night at home a date night. But when our children were younger my DH would just say Ok, watching a film with your mum now, snacks in the kitchen if you want some, bye bye!

It’s the least of your problems but if I was making a phone call and didn’t want someone else to listen in, I would do it away from prying ears.

Does he know the people you’re on the phone to? If it’s a private conversation with your friends he’s totally out of order. If you’re speaking to his grandmother, it’s a bit more understandable that he’d involve himself.

@LuckySantangelo35 I suspect it's because she can't tell how absolutely non-typical his behaviour is.

Appears oblivious/naive about her child's behaviour.

Autism runs in the family. He's clearly not NT and his behaviour is deeply disturbing to read about. You need to sort yourself out and kick him out.

@Choochoo21

why do you think OP sounds neurodivergent?

Yep sorry but got to agree. Why are you tiptoeing around your son, allowing him to call all the shots, telling you about his "high standards" for parenting, listening in on your phone calls, walking in and out of the room when you and your husband are trying to have a date night...

Seriously. If I had tried any of that on as a child (never mind an adult!) my parents would have told me to bugger off.

Why is your child running your household @treadingcarefree ?

If I'm on the phone he'll stand around listening and laughing, commenting on my conversation

If as you say there are no special needs to consider, tell him not to be so bloody rude when he does this, walk out of the room and shut the door behind you! You don’t have to passively put up with this level of intrusion

That was my first thought too.

I also wonder if older DS isn’t the biological son of the DH, which OP may find difficult navigating too.

OP, you sound scared of him. My DD is only little, so I don't have experience of adult children, but I'm pretty sure other posters who DO have adult children will say that this isn't normal.

Where are you taking the phone calls? It is quite antisocial of you to take them in common areas unless there's a good reason e.g. your other half is sleeping in your bedroom.

Asking someone to go out so you can have a date night is also odd behaviour. Normally if you a date night YOU go out, you don't temporarily kick someone out of their home. Where was your other ds when you were having your date night?

You need to decide if you want him to still live there or not, if you don't that's fine - ask him to leave, if you do, you need to accept it it's his home too and go to your own room if you want privacy to make a phone call / have a conversation with your other half / just have some time to yourself, just as he presumably has to go to his room when he wants privacy.

That said, it's fine to ask him to leave the room to allow you to manage your other ds better, but treat him as the adult he is and communicate. It's possible he's just trying to see if there's anything he can do to help. Have a conversation beforehand and tell him it's easier to manage him on your own - or tell him what he could do to help and then if he still hangs around when your younger ds is having a meltdown tell him you've got it and ask him to leave/ remind him of whatever action is helpful.

Are you charging him rent and board? At market rate?

If not, I'd suggest you crack on with having that conversation unless he can provide evidence that he is saving significant sums with the aim of buying/moving out.

Either way, he's a grown adult and if you can't have a direct conversation about his behaviour and he accepts it and mends his ways, then you have a bigger problem.

Re the phone thing. Stare him out. Stop talking, ask him what he needs, tell him to shut the door on his way out.

Does he babysit for you so you can go out? If he's part of the family, is he properly pulling his weight?

Being told to go away and let parents have a private date night is not a social cue, though, it's a direct request. Do you have issues understanding direct requests? Because, as an autistic woman this has never been a problem for me. I may struggle with undertones and hints but the beauty of autism is that I am very comfortable with direct communications and don't think they mean more than what they say.
My autistic cousin has a ridiculous habit of standing behind people's backs when they sit down which everyone in the family find unsettling. We ask him to move to the front and sit down. He has never spent months being sarcastic about it. Yes, we have to ask him every time. No, he never makes it any more dramatic than it needs to be.
I am aware that autism presents differently for different people, still, I believe you can be autistic and be a manipulative creep at the same time. Diagnosis is not an excuse for this behaviour.

What an incredibly curious relationship you have with your son? It sounds both oddly enmeshed, and really distant at the same time?

why are you so scared of alienating him, OP? or scared of him full stop, perhaps?

why do you care what a childless 24 year old thinks of your parenting of your 9 year old?

Have you thought about therapy? For yourself I mean, to work out how to manage your relationship with your DS and move it to a healthier place?

This. OP @treadingcarefree you sound almost scared to confront your own son?!

If I ever tried to be nosy and listen into a telephone conversation my mum was having (which let's face it, all kids try at one time or another) she would either tell me to go to my room / into another room, or she would walk into another room and shut the door!

Also,

He has very high standards when it comes to parenting and often remarks on how terrible other parents are and how he would never visit if they were his so I try to do my best and I have, it's just got too much now.

WTF?!?! You're trying to "do your best" to fit in with your sons "high standards" of parenting?! When he's not actually a parent himself?! And is actually a grown man still living with his mum and dad?!

Yeah that's weird. It's like he's in charge of the household....

DP sometimes hovers over me. I think it’s because he likes to help. But I find it mighty annoying and say “I don’t need supervising thanks. Go away.”

Not sure that’s helpful, just offering some empathy.

You're controlled and trapped by your adult child. You and your husband need to deal with this together.

What's he earning? Is he saving for something? Why can't he move out? Ultimately though, just tell him you a) want him out the house between X and Y hours; b) don't want him in the same room as you when you are working/chilling/whatever; c) he must not intentionally overhear phone conversations.