To ask ds to go out more

Are you sure he's not ND as well? That's a really unusual way for a man of 24 to behave.

Tell him to stop. Stop listening to you on the phone. Stop commenting on your parenting. Set clear boundaries.

I must admit he sounds a bit ND to me too but in any case he lacks social skills and empathy. He won't leave you alone on your date night! There are places he can go on his own to give you some peace (McD's, library, cinema, pub etc) if he wanted to. He actually sounds a bit clingy and manipulative tbh.

He needs to join a club or something. Does he have any interests? It could be hobby wise or educational, usually the local FE college runs day and evening courses for adults. Does he ever date? If all he ever says he has nowhere to go and nothing to do help him find things. He shouldn't be this clueless at 24!

This.

He sounds very odd. Have you asked him directly why he watches you? With his sarcastic comments and digs I'd tell him to stop immediately. No-one likes a know all. Give him a month to shape up or tell him to sling his hook.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. She should lock herself in her room because he can't stop himself from hovering over her and listening to her messages while being so critical of her. Then what happens to her younger son with needs? She locks him in her room as well so she can attend to him without the critical glare of her older son?

No he is 24 and the plan should be to get him to independence so he can move out and live his life. He does not get to trap her in her own home for the rest of her life.

I do get it. When DD lived here I enjoyed her company but found her constant presence a bit much. She has moved out now. What might work?
1.tell him to stop hovering over you or observing. Make it an absolute firm rule.
2.Have a conversation about fair use of the space in the house involve your dh

1. Make sure he has household tasks and errends he is responsible for - eg garden maintainence, food shop, taking stuff to tip, collecting parcels, cleaning bathroom
2. Charge an appropriate amount for bed and board so it's not such a huge leap to move out.

And I do think his behaviour is not at all normal. He seems to have no understanding of social norms. He’s like a five year old constantly interrupting parents’ conversations and following them round the house.

I thought ND too. My 19 year old son has ASD and ADHD. His ASD is high functioning but he has had to "learn" some social cues that didn't come naturally. One of those is that he didn't have much regard for my (or his dad or sister's) privacy and space, despite being very defensive of his own. We've had to be quite firm with him at times, to the extent that sometimes he is told "go away and give us some peace".

I have also had conversations about his future plans but he's very cagey and likes to keep his business to himself. This is a quote from one of your posts which sounds very like my son!

What does he do when you're at work? Is he hovering waiting for you when you get home? I do think you need to be blunt/firm with him. "Where am I supposed to go?". "No idea, you're an adult, find somewhere." Why are you worried about upsetting him? There needs to be some give and take.

Do you get any time alone at home when he's at work and you aren't? If so that's a bit of respite!

Agreed. United front is needed here. I have a DS24, recently moved out. He would not have dreamed of listening in on my conversations or commenting on our parenting of his younger DB. He was either out in the evenings or on the PS in his room, but we usually ate together.

If we needed privacy we could say we need X space to ourselves, and he would have been fine. His attitude is very strange, and it needs to be challenged.

You need to be much firmer about him moving out - in a year or two, if not now. It isn’t your job to find him somewhere - it’s his.

And the sarcastic comments need to stop. For example, I sometimes have evening zoom meetings, 8-9 pm in the kitchen diner. There’s no problem here with folks knowing they need to get what they want in terms of snacks and drinks before I start, and not reappear until I’m finished.

I find his behaviour very manipulative and controlling and this statement is just ridiculous. "He has very high standards when it comes to parenting and often remarks on how terrible other parents are and how he would never visit if they were his"

You need to start setting boundaries and start the conversation about his future plans. It doesn't have to be move out next week but more talk about his plans and maybe nudge the conversation towards planning for moving out. If he still refuses to take the hint continues to the use the threat of never seeing you again. Then you need to be firm and call his bluff. Sorry but I wouldn't continue to live like that and build some much resentment and exhaustion because he threatens to never see me again. Let's see how easy he finds it to live independently without any support. I find his behaviour very controlling and arrogant. You already have your hands full with your younger son and your older son is just piling on the stress and pressure.

Is this what he is going to do to his future partner? Keep her controlled and contained in a relationship she is unhappy with and hates?

Ds9 is back to school today and I could really do with some time to myself after the 6 weeks holiday to unwind but he's sitting beside me as usual and I don't feel I can even make a phone call to chat with a friend.

Why is your 24 year old son sat next to you on a Monday morning??? Why is he not at work?! Why can't you tell him to fuck bugger off??? Why can't you go out??? Why are you scared of just being blunt with him?!

Seriously, there has got to be some huge drip feed here because this is absolutely not normal...

As a neurodivergent woman myself, with two neurodivergent DC, I thought exactly the same. OP and both her boys sound ND.

OP, when someone asked if he could be ND, you answered that he goes out to work. Lots of autistic people work, have friends, families, social lives etc. It really does depend on the level of functioning and ability to mask.

You say he’s not mocking you on the phone calls. Nor does it sound as if he’s mocking his younger brother during meltdowns. He sounds clueless and unaware rather than spiteful.

The situation re date night and being told to stay away also screams neurodivergence to me. Theres something called RSD which is common with ND folk. It’s extreme sensitivity to being rejected/feeling rejected. He sounds as if he has no idea why it would be inappropriate to keep barging into a romantic meal and felt pushed out in his own home. That’s not a normal reaction and really does suggest neurodivergence.

Also worth noting that lots of ND can appear controlling - it’s a way of coping, reducing the unpredictability of the world which is really hard for many ND folk. I’m not suggesting it should be just accepted or ignored, but there’s not a malicious motive behind this type of behaviour.

I understand that you’re scared of losing him if you tell him to move out. If you think he’s capable, and you think it’s in yours and his best interests, it’s something you could work towards. However it would be helpful to structure it as something positive for him, rather than “you’re in my space and we don’t want you here.” You could maybe agree that he comes home on X days so you both know where you stand. However, I have to ask whether he has the skills to move out and live independently? I really do think you need to be brutally honest with yourself here.

I know you should be able to just say to your child “don’t you think it’s time you found your own place?” - but my comments here are on the basis of him being ND. He really, really does sound it.

You need to start making it uncomfortable for him to live their so that he wants to move out. I bet you still do all the family chores you used to.

Charge room and board
Stop doing his laundry
Stop cooking for him and get a small fridge/freezer he can keep his own food in
Hand him a cleaning rota for when it's his turn to clean the bathroom and kitchen or whatever
Spend evenings with him looking on RightMove and possibly attend viewings with him if you have to to make him go.

Have a conversation with him about it beforehand, that he is an adult now and as such will not be treated like a child but another adult living in the house. That he isn't being kicked out of the family unit but his next stage in life is calling and it's essential he learns the skills and goes it alone and that he should be in his own place by January 2025 to start this new stage.

Another vote for the fact you and older DS both sound like you have significant traits of autism whether you have enough for a full diagnosis or not. This level of issues with communication between you all and not following social queues or addressing it is not really typical. As I'm sure you know autism is hereditary and is far more common for a parent or siblings to have it if another family member does and ofcourse nobody realises those less severe traits are autism as that's the way they've always been.

This is not normal behaviour for a young adult or even a teen

Well yes, but the son's working days shouldn't be seen as respite from his bizarre and rude behaviour. This is her home and while we all have things that irritate each other, he both sounds unbearable AND is always around in the very sizeable chunks of time he's off. I couldn't put up with an evening of this nonsense, let alone 4 days on the trot. The kinder part of me would worry greatly about him because it all bodes very ill for his ability to form healthy and fun relationships with friends and lovers who would be even less inclined to tolerate it than a loving parent..

I have to admit my first thought was that he also has autism. I wouldn't normally think that straight away, but I have a son that age and it seems very unusual behaviour. He doesn't live with me but I do have a teenager who would never hang around me in this way. If he did do this, if I was on the phone for instance, I would have no problem in telling him to go away! I get the impression you feel you can't do that as your son doesn't understand social boundaries in the same way and would therefore be upset.

My oldest DC is a quarter of this man's age and I'd have no trouble telling them that they are being rude and they need to go find something else to do if they pulled that behaviour on me.

Is your DH also scared of him?

Have you told him to stop?

Like everything else he’s doing, it’s rude behaviour. That’s the issue, to a far greater degree than him not going out. Have you directly addressed this?

I think he works out of house 4 long days then has 4 days off where he gives Op no space.

His behaviour is not typical for an adult. He’s acting like a junior age child.
At 24 it’s perfectly normal to broach what next without a big fall out. Is he saving? Could he move in a shared house.

So you get some space on the days he does the compressed hours? They must be quite long days.

If he is implying your relationship wouldn’t recover if you asked him to move out makes me think he is controlling you in some way. The same with him watching you parenting your younger child and listening to your conversations and not giving your and your DH any space.

This. He sounds like a controlling partner. Not your child.

It's very strange behaviour. Why is he watching you all the time if he's WFH? Doesn't he work in his room?

I don't know any child who behaves like this past primary school age! Listening in on phone calls and following his parents around not being able to leave them alone is something I used to do around aged 7 or 8 until my mum would tell me to bugger off!

At the age of 24 it's just seriously odd. Even more odd is the fact that OP doesn't seem to be just be able to tell him and seems to be tiptoeing round him.

Also, if my child told me about their "high standards" for parenting, I would piss myself laughing. I would not be then trying to "do my best" to reach them which is what OP has said she's doing 😐

If he is implying your relationship wouldn’t recover if you asked him to move out makes me think he is controlling you in some way. The same with him watching you parenting your younger child and listening to your conversations and not giving your and your DH any space. He should be able to get over the disappointment/sadness of parents asking him to move out. It’s the normal trajectory of growing up and starting his own life. He might even find he builds more relationships because he won’t be so dependant on you. You really need to start the conversation with him. You also need to insist on your privacy on calls and parenting your other child. I’d just tell him to leave the room and I’m not sure why you aren’t doing this.