Single sex toilets and feminism

I think Julia Gillard has been proven to be no feminist when she has left Australia in such a mess where lesbians cannot meet without having to accept male
people and where the winning Metro league female football team for one region has 5 male players and six teams forfeited their games against them due to safety fears. At least one female player will never play again after life limiting injury caused by one of those players. That is just two of the directly impacted groups harmed by Gillard’s action in 2013.

I think we should simply make all toilets self enclosed, private and with a wash basin and sanpro facilities in each one. That would be better for women dealing with menstruation/bladder issues, concerns over safety, and concerns over privacy/dignity of transpeople. Toilets should just be toilets and kitted out for anyone to use, as they are in any private house. Ditto changing rooms. No need for this to be such an inflammatory issue or for anyone to feel unheard/unsafe/disrespected.

Totally agree with this

This!

Ps men who identify as women- including those who transition medically do not reduce any propensity to commit crime, including violent and sexual crime - there is no difference to their fellow men.

They also retain their physical advantage over women.

Therefore they poss the same threat as any man in single sex spaces.

Men are excluded from women's spaces even though a majority would not commit violent or sexual crimes - trans women pose the same threat and should be excluded on that basis.

If transwomen feel uncomfortable in mens spaces they need their own space- not to take women's spaces where they are statistically posing the same threat as any other man.

A) Yes

B) Yes in theory, however in practice I don't believe there has ever been such a thing as a perfectly single sex toilet. By the time the male cleaners, plumbers, children, bouncers (if in a club), boyfriends women have snuck in or who are looking after their paralytic girlfriends, various maintenance staff, men who need to use the baby change (often only in the women's which is a whole other issue), or people who simply make a mistake (I've accidentally used the men's once) have all finished, the numbers of trans women who use the women's loos pales into insignificance and I don't believe their presence increases the risk to women any more than all the above do. I've never seen a trans woman in a women's loo. I have seen lots of male cleaners, and frankly if they wanted to perve, loiter, or sneakily install cameras, they'd draw a lot less attention than a man in makeup and women's clothing.

C) Yes.

Define transphobia - because it has now been used by the TRAs to mean any non belief in teans ideology - so you can be accepting of trans people but if you do not affirm that trans women are actually women you are defined as transphobic. If you don't believe that the affirmation model is appropriate for gender questioning children you are transphobic, if.you don't believe that children should be medically transitioned or raise concerns about the experimental nature of the trans medical world and poor outcomes of such treatments you are transphobic etc etc which is total bull shit imo and therefore any statement about transphobia is a joke.

It is not transphobic to believe that as males transwomen do not belong in single sex spaces - they need to lobby for a third space if they cannot use the facilities that match their sex.

Women's rights do not include men - including trans identified men. That is not transphobic.

I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).

Women aren't little men. Women and men are biologically different and develop differently. Men are bigger, faster and stronger than women. Teenage boys can easily beat world class female athletes.

I speak as a woman who has been victim
of sexual assault and abusive behaviour from partners.

You don't speak for all women, just yourself. Many survivors of abuse by men don't feel safe with men in their spaces. Men have assaulted vulnerable women in refuges and homeless hostels. They don't feel safe with men present in rape crisis groups.

I see no correlation between the perpetrators of this and trans women just because they both happened to be born with penises.

Because men just have to announce they're women in order to enter women's spaces, there is no way of knowing if they're predators or not, until it's too late. You don't have to actually do anything to intimidate a woman or child, being with a man when you're vulnerable can be enough.

I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).

yes I do agree that trans women should have access to women’s refuges, support groups, etc. if they are in need of support and have suffered violence just like other women. I speak as a woman who has been victim
of sexual assault and abusive behaviour from partners. I see no correlation between the perpetrators of this and trans women just because they both happened to be born with penises.

breastfeeding groups and menopause groups are for people who have gone through those things (which can also include trans men).

@EsmaCannonball

1. Do you think that the men who harass and assault women in public will behave well in mixed-sex public toilets?

1. How do you think women's lives will be improved by making public toilets mixed-sex?

As above if they are properly designed and fully enclosed I personally would feel safer. I also think it means men could access changing stations with children easier taking a load off mothers. It would also afford trans men (who we all seem to forget about) a potentially safer option without having to "out" themselves.

1. Do you think the women in developing countries who are campaigning for single-sex toilets are bigots who should be grateful that they already have progressive mixed-sex facilities?

Of course not but I'm also not in a developing country with the socio-econonic and political difficulties that exist there. What I can comment on is what is happening here in the UK which is very different. Context matters. I also wouldn't say that women campaigning for that here are 'bigots' I understand their concerns. I personally don't share those concerns but they are entitled to their opinion.

"I'm not really looking for people's opinion... nor whether transwomen pass"

This is entirely what the toilet issue boils down to though isn't it? Physical appearance is the only way to police people using single sex bathrooms.

I do consider myself a feminist.
I support single sex toilets where its not possible to have individual gender neutral bathrooms (ie individual bathrooms not cubicles in one room). To me that would be a better option all round.
Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets
Personally I think yes. I believe transwomen are more vulnerable in male toilets due to the fact they are identifying as female therefore, to me, that's a feminist issue. I don't believe they are any more likely to be harmful to women in a bathroom than the openly male cleaners cleaning female only bathrooms. I also believe that many transmen coming into female only bathrooms would cause an uproar. Which is why it really comes down to physical appearance.

Sorry, one more question.....

How do you tell the difference between a man pretending to be a woman and a transwoman?

I have three questions for people:

1. Do you think that the men who harass and assault women in public will behave well in mixed-sex public toilets?

2. How do you think women's lives will be improved by making public toilets mixed-sex?

3. Do you think the women in developing countries who are campaigning for single-sex toilets are bigots who should be grateful that they already have progressive mixed-sex facilities?

If you consider transwomen to be women do you think there should be no single sex spaces or sex segregated sport?

Do you think transwomen should share women's refuges, changing rooms, sexual violence support groups, breast feeding groups or menopause support groups?

Should transwomen be allowed to compete in women's sport?

I was on holiday this year and went some public loos - the ladies was small and there were only 2 cubicles. Someone was in one of the cubicles for ages so I had to take it in turns with my 2 girls in the other cubicle.

After at least 5 mins a man made a dash for it looking very embarrassed 😳. I didn't see as I was still in the cubicle having a wee.

I think he had mistaken the loo sign judging by his hasty exit. My girls thought it was hilarious but it was pretty weird when we thought we were on our own with another lady. I think my youngest might have been scared if I'd sent her in on her own.

The problem is, predators (because that's what we're talking about) don't need to disguise themselves under the current political climate. They just need to say they're women to gain access to women's spaces.

These predators have sexually assaulted and raped women in prison and assaulted women and girls in changing rooms and toilets. They also intimidate survivors of abuse and deter women from other cultures.

Men are saying they are women and beating women in sport. This has been a particular problem in the States where sports scholarships are given for university places. However they have been winning prizes in cycling and other sports. Recently in Australia a football team with 5 men won the women's league.

TRAs have also prevented women from meeting, deplatformed them and intruded on exclusive women's only spaces such as refuges, domestic violence services and lesbian groups.

It’s actually been very heartening to see some trans inclusive content under this thread! Mumsnet can be a very toxic space when it comes to trans rights (before anyone comes at me with ‘women’s rights’ I consider trans women to be women).

really don’t care about toilet spaces. The way I see it is if a man wants to molest someone in a toilet, he doesn’t need to pretend to be a woman to do that. In fact, it’s very easy for men to abuse women - the idea that they’d need to transition and disguise themselves as women to get away with it is laughable! All that narrative does is stigmatise trans women who are also at risk of male violence.

Oh and i don’t get those saying they support single sex spaces but they include transwomen in that

i get saying single gender spaces….even if i don’t agree, but single sex makes no sense

How so?

women yes, of all intersections

and I can't help but think that the anti trans rhetoric is actually setting feminism back.

Yes
yes
i struggle a bit with this one, i don’t think I should say that someone isn’t a feminist BUT it makes no logical sense to me so if forced to I would say No

Well yes, let's make it easier for the men who would want to kill, rape, assault or just plain perve over us to have unlimited access to spaces where women are more vulnerable.

I'm a feminist who believes trans-women are women and has no issue sharing our single gender toilets.

In fairness, I was never worried about the mixed gender toilets at my previous workplace either.

There are many different views within feminism, no one gets to dictate that only people who think exactly the same as them are allowed to use the term.

I'm the type of feminist who thinks we should focus more on men raping, killing and oppressing women than on whether a another minority group, that's also subject to oppression, is able to have a pee when they need.

Exactly this. Thanks @FOJN