Single sex toilets and feminism

Fearing MALES is not 'transphobia'.

Just to add - even if.you could magic the propensity to be anywhere as low as women's level of offending you still have the physical advantage - even an mediocre man could physically overpower most women 'and that includes.trans identified men.

On the flip side the ONS have had to reject a request for data on violent crimes against transgender people on the basis of too few cases to enable statistical analysis

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/violentcrimeratefortransgenderpeoplecomparedwiththegeneralpopulation2013to2023

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

There are several studies, will find links here is ons

There is some opression there. No one can deny that. The figures of illegitimate discrimination in gaining employment, and apparently housing has been noted in the past in the UK.

However, I would suggest that some posters here will come along and use South American transgender prostitutes murder rates to try to support UK male people with trans identities being marginalised and oppressed. They will also use misinformation around suicide too.

The question is, is this group of male people more oppressed than the female people they are demanding additional rights to be removed from to allow them to have their rights prioritised?

I have not seen any credible evidence of this. Particularly when the CPS has issued guidance that any wife not using preferred pronouns, nouns and names is committing domestic abuse. When the bias in prioritising is that clear and the power differential is that clear, I cannot find some of the statistics used to support such claims as being credible.

And there we have it...men's rights trump women's rights therefore you can not be a feminist.

a) I thought I did, but by your definition maybe not
b) no
c) yes

Nah, I misunderstood your point and thought you were being serious. I think we agree.

Was this a post that you want me to answer? I am happy to, of course?

Are trans women an oppressed minority? Serious question. How is the oppression measured?

How is allowing blokes into the girls loos a good idea? Have you ever asked yourself WHY single sex spaces exist? That the data shows excluding ALL males reduces the vulnerability of females to.... I don't know... Rape. Sexual assault. Violence....? In your privileged world, mixed loos are fine, but try telling that to Indian or Afghan schoolgirls....or British ones who.even Ofsted say face unprecedented levels of sexual harassment. If single sex wasn't a valuable tool in the fight against VAWG why does the data say otherwise? I rather think you want us to look at the bat/chicken/ pangolin over there.

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
Yes.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
Yes!

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?
I don't consider feminism compatible with the politics of transgenderism full stop, let alone allowing tims into our toilets.

I used to be in the TWAW camp decades ago because TW were so rare, I don't think I ever met one and I'd never really thought about it. It didn't bother me that a TW would use a female public toilet.

I didn't think that TW were biological women but I respected their noun preference and gender choice.

Now I don't because it infringes on the rights of women and girls.

I'm really confused by people who consider themselves feminists but are "trans-inclusive", i.e. they believe some men are really women. What do they believe women are, and why do they think feminism is needed?

Here you go, someone worked it out using the census data too.

There are 48,000 transwomen.

Of that 30.4 million women, 125 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders.
1 in 243,000 Of the 48,000 transwomen, 82 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders. *

1 in every 585.

https://x.com/mar2vickers/status/1611484662093828127

And here you go, this was presented to parliament and I don't believe anyone has ever shown the information to be false.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Ministry of Justice 2020 Data

The question of whether transwomen match male or female patterns of criminality is specifically addressed by the 2020 FOI referenced by Fair Play For Women (who have submitted evidence to the Committee). This is first time there has been official data to compare the rate of sex offending in 3 different groups. Men vs women vs transwomen. The hyperlinks below link to the FOI spreadsheet.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).
Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3% 13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

and here

Michael Biggs, ‘The Transition from Sex to Gender in English Prisons: Human Rights and Queer Theory’, SocArXiv, 17 May 2020

https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/43f2t

I am looking forward to someone posting the evidence that this group of male people should be treated any differently for safeguarding purposes for the safety of female people than ANY OTHER MALE PERSON.

In fact, I would welcome someone posting the evidence that a male person at any stage of their transition has the same or lower risk of committing a violent or sex crime as ANY OTHER FEMALE PERSON. And if you cannot post this evidence, why do you believe that this group of male people should be accessing ANY female single sex space.

And it is not just about safety. It is also about privacy and dignity.

Male people have form for using female people as resources for their own needs of validation, acceptance etc. Not just in prison but this can be extrapolated to be the case everywhere.

https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/she-was-just-like-a-lassie-analysing-the-views-of-cis-women-in-cu

And this is just the UK. Australia just famously had a male person demand damages for an app who rejected that male person's claim to be 'female'. Look up Giggle vs Tickle and tell us all why any female has to accept a male person onto an app meant to be a single sex space?

All this is based on transgression of female people's boundaries. Some male people, from different groups of male people wish to do this. What makes any of them different if they have claimed they have a transgender identity? They have not changed sex.

And how many more women and girls are to be considered acceptable collateral before you, general but you can only answer this from a personal perspective, start to hold the opinion that female single sex spaces should be just that, only for female people and NEVER for any group of male people above the age of about 8 years old? How many more? 1? 5? 20? 31 as one poster declared? 100 per year as another declared?

Mine is zero.

It comes from knowing how many male people with gender identities are currently in jail for violence and sex crimes. The information is available.

Here is a place to start.

https://archive.is/THF72

However, it is also an issue of logic. How exactly, and I mean in detail, does a male with a transgender identity change from
being just like any other male? Please list them and let’s go through the logic exercise.

For instance, some people declare it is hormone changes. Start with that. What makes a male with no or low testosterone due to disease or injury any different from one with a transgender identity ?

But we also know that so many don’t take testosterone suppressants, they love to use their dicks. So many post pics of them with full arousals on social media that this cannot be denied. So if they still have a dick they actively use for sex, what else is different between the groups of male people?

Dresses? Make up? Breasts? Even those who have had feminine facial surgery and have developed still likely have use of their dicks. 95% or more keep their dicks. Are you seriously going to say wearing a dress or make up makes a woman?

And many male people have breast development and are still male and that doesn’t reduce their risk of committing male pattern crimes.

So, please list what makes these males any different to other males?

And then the onus is on those who are pushing for change to prove that the group in question have the same rate of committing violent and sex crime as female people or lower to be considered at the female risk for safeguarding purposes. Ie. For access to any single sex space.

If you cannot find evidence to support your claim, why do you believe it? And why should any one else consider your opinion one that is informed?

I’m interested to know where this information comes from? What are the statistics that show that trans women pose the same threat as men? How have these been collated?

Speaking about what transgender people should look like, the two biological female transwomen have struck a chord this weekend. The reaction from some male people has been remarkable.

Apparently, female people cannot present themselves as male trans people and dildos stuck into underwear is not the same as lady dick.

Who knew!

Just a reminder that toilets are there for the many unique needs of female people, needed because of their female body. And just because you, another female, have not needed to use a public toilet for anything other than ‘just to pee ‘ doesn’t make you the arbitrator of what other female people use the toilet for.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is. They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life).

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

Using single sex spaces should never have been about someone’s philosophical belief that they are male or female. If you choose to share a male person’s philosophical belief that they are somehow a female with the same needs as female people, that is just your belief. It is fine that you have it.

No one else needs to comply with a belief that cannot be backed with credible evidence in any way. Centring those male people is not an act of feminism, it is an act of men’s rights activism to put a group of male people’s demands at a higher priority to female people’s established needs.

It is always this petitchat, it is known as distraction.

Look there is a squirrel/bat/whatever, that is what we should be talking about. Not what you want to discuss which I don’t deem important because of my irrelevant point about ‘gender neutral toilets at my work/cafe/home’. If you were really a feminist you would be prioritising x, just like I am.

There should be no expectation on any male with a gender identity to fit a certain profile.

The only expectation is that they acknowledge that they are male, and that they fully respect the needs of female people are different and unique to their own needs. Meaning they don’t use female single sex spaces, take opportunities set aside for female people to achieve after millennia of negative sexist discrimination and they don’t demand to be included in female sports categories. Or force compliance of their own philosophical belief in anyway, including language compliance.

we should focus more on men raping, killing and oppressing women

And yet you want to make it easier for men to do this by giving them access to ladies loos?

Somewhat contradictory......

You missed the point.

Transwomen can wear what they want, it's none of my business.

I was highlighting that no one has to "dress up as a woman" to claim to be a transwoman to access single sex spaces.

"I identify as a woman" is all that's required which basically means that any and all men can access single sex spaces.

What, ideally should a transwoman look like? Because if they wear make up and dresses and wear their hair long, as millions of biological women do, they are accused of parodying women and promoting gender stereotypes.