To think we should all boycott John Lewis until they respect their female employees

A solution could have been found that did not require any person to be harmed. A solution could have been found that didn’t require staff to comply with someone’s philisophical belief or political activism as being material reality.

Disbelievers cannot be tolerated.

It tells us all we really need to know. It is about valuing male people above female people. As more of society understands the discrimination against female people that is the outcome of policies such as this, the less people will accept this.

A solution could have been found that did not require any person to be harmed. A solution could have been found that didn’t require staff to comply with someone’s philisophical belief or political activism as being material reality.

Maybe for some; but I don't think all. I think there are a range of reasons. All of them disrespectful to women and girls.

I think it's just selfishness. They know they will get funny looks and possibly judgement in the men's. Maybe they will in the women's too, but of course it's far less threatening.

From the letter.

Married, male colleagues, with full male genitalia, not transitioning to female, who live as husbands at home but choose to dress as women at work, assuming female names, and expecting full access to toilettes and locker rooms which were previously female-only employee safe spaces. This regardless and without one moment of thought or consideration for any negative effects and consequences on their female colleagues.
Female colleagues who I know to be triggered, caused anxiety and mental distress by these men’s presence in previously safe female spaces.
Female colleagues who live in fear of dismissal if they speak out. So just like home they put up and shut up and acquiesce to the demands of men.

Why are these women not worthy of consideration exactly? I think it tells us quite a lot about the nature of gender identity ideology.

And I would caution women to in general beware of any man, of any gender identity, who wants to have his say on what rights women should be allowed to have. The idea that misogyny is confined to the political right wing is a very naive one.

We’re talking about trans women. Who are women. Which is why we’re not answering questions about men’s feelings.

They're not women in any sense. Male people cannot be women. Women are female. That's just what the term means, an adult female human being. Gender identity ideology is a quasi religious belief system. You are free to hold whatever implausible beliefs you like. You're not free to force others who do not share them to validate them. Women's facilities are for the benefit, privacy, dignity, safety of female people, not male ones.

What is going on at a societal level? Well, gender identity ideology doesn't make sense, and everyone knows that. But predictably some males and their supporters are seeing how far they can push it, for a whole host of reasons. And the reason they are succeeding to the extent that they are is due to sexism and misogyny. Who cares what many most women feel, after all? Like JK Rowling, I've never seen misogyny as clearly as I do through this issue.

For myself, I would rather be deleted for voicing opinions about women/ childrens rights than consistently pushing to get men into womens spaces.

I wonder WHY some men are determined to get in knowing it will upset women and children?

Is it:
A power trip?
A"win"?
Jealousy?
Curiosity?
Never got told NO by their mothers when growing up?

What is it exactly?

Imagine being a man and spending your days upsetting women by constantly saying we're going to come into your toilets.

The men I know think this is weird.

Same here. The misogynist apologist men really stand out as not giving a shit about women and girls. It's not the majority view in this country that men should be accessing women only spaces, whichever way you slice it.

That isn't fair - MN has been one of the few places that you could actually talk about this stuff. As well as the Times, to some extent.

Didn't M&S have a transwomen working in the women's underwear department a few years ago.

Yes.

Well said 👏

I'd like to encourage everyone who's engaged with this thread to watch the new transwidows film. It's beautifully filmed. The link is in the OP of the thread below.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5151159-premiere-of-trans-widows-film-on-friday-30th-aug

Transwidows and children of transitioners are groups of people who are also excluded from shops that centre the wants of transwomen to enter women's spaces over the needs of everyone else. Even when third 'gender neutral / mixed sex' spaces plus truly single sex spaces are an option that would include all groups.

I note that all an abusive man has to do is say 'I identify as a woman' and in JL he can follow his abused victim into the toilets. It used to be the case that these were spaces abused women had some breathing space because you could call out a male entering without being accused of being a bigot and being reported for wrongthink.

No, I agree

It’s depressing but eventually reality will prevail.

You would think so.
But sadly, it seems as though MNHQ has been caught up in the current protection of fantasies and fetishes.

The deletion of posts is ridiculous.

You’d think a site for women would support women.

Oh I see. Thank you. It's not a term I like much in either direction.

ilovesooty

a poster upthread referred to ‘the GC brigade’ I am assuming its in response to that

Or they might not fall into any of those categories. What's with the use of the word "brigade"?

For myself, I would rather be deleted for voicing opinions about women/ childrens rights than consistently pushing to get men into womens spaces.

I wonder WHY some men are determined to get in knowing it will upset women and children?

Is it:
A power trip?
A"win"?
Jealousy?
Curiosity?
Never got told NO by their mothers when growing up?

What is it exactly?

Imagine being a man and spending your days upsetting women by constantly saying we're going to come into your toilets.

The men I know think this is weird.

But surely men can turn into real weasels, if they really, really believe and proclaim they have the species soul of a weasel? Isn’t that to be accepted now, according to what appears to be your ideological belief in magic?

The term weasel is a well known term and applies to someone doing something dodgy. Anyone pushing unevidenced, hocus pocus, anti scientific claptrap would be a dodgy activity to most people, and would be a ‘weasel with suspicious motive’ (to quote your post now) in my opinion. Don’t you think? I’m sure the term ‘snake oil salesman’ was based on such activities in the past. As an example, some people sell fake medicines. They deceive and present something false as real. They take advantage of people and can harm them. At best, they don’t give the treatment needed.

I am quite sure no man would ever, ever metaphorically piss down someone’s back, and telling them it is raining. Most certainly not some man who tells you he has become a woman. Only the nicest, soundest men say that. It’s a kinda magic, all of it.

Mind you, the Cass Report has pulled the curtain back a little. Rigorous scientists with integrity and expertise, and not in the service of a poorly evidenced ideology. What do they know, eh?

I mean it could be calling people ‘weasels with suspicious motives’ that got you deleted.

But you keep telling yourself it’s because you’re standing up for women’s rights….

Interesting, that was quick. I don’t know why I got deleted. You call bullsh1t on magic thinking, and poof. Maybe magic really does exist. Not quackery at all.

I do apologise. A man is a dolphin if he says so. See, I totally agree. Now I’m not quite sure what has to be done to achieve that (previously thought impossible by mere mortals) state of transformation. And the trampling of women’s and children’s rights is the least we can do to indulge men. See, I totally agree.

Women will be expecting they shouldn’t have their rights, security, opportunities and very humanity trampled on if we’re not careful…