To wish I could stop paying into the utterly broken NHS black hole

Which bit would you like verifying? The worse patient outcomes? Take a look here:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/51215/1/__libfile_REPOSITORY_Content_CASE_CASE%20Social%20policy%20in%20a%20cold%20climate%20series_Working%20papers_spccwp02_full%20text.pdf

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Or perhaps the scale of privatisation under the last Labour government? For that you could look here:

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/07/forty-years-of-nhs-privatisation

And yes, I agree, the last government should have put more emphasis on NHS reform, to give the taxpayer the same type of service our European neighbours get. They failed as well.

That’s why we need to take tribal politics, failed ideology and dogma driven focus on ‘because NHS’ out of the equation.

Although for context, under in the Bliar / Brown years, partly hidden by badly negotiated PFI that some trusts are still suffering with, the NHS delivered worse patient outcomes than any other ‘first world’ health service. And that was after 13 years of significant spending increases

Can you verify that? And what about the last 14 years?

Although for context, under in the Bliar / Brown years, partly hidden by badly negotiated PFI that some trusts are still suffering with, the NHS delivered worse patient outcomes than any other ‘first world’ health service. And that was after 13 years of significant spending increases.

The NHS is unable to deliver world class healthcare in its existing structure. Failure to reform means continued reform by the back door…which is the increasing privatisation by stealth started by the last Labour government. At least the Tory’s are open about it.

Labour, let’s not forget, brought in 100 privately funded hospitals, privately run dialysis clinics in 2008, and outsourced most community care through the ‘Transforming Community Care’ initiative. Arguably leading to the crisis in community care we now face.

No government understands how or can be trusted to deliverer a fit for purpose, never mind world class, heath service as long as its (a) subject to short term polictal interference and (b) held to ransom by its staff.

Brown and Blair also did the same tax cuts good, rises bad mantra too!

We as a country have had that for a few decades now.

Brown brought in a new Lower 10% tax rate and starter O% corporation tax rate. Also brought in tax credits, increased ISA allowances etc.

Successive governments have consistently sent the message of lower taxes by all kinds of different incentives etc.

You really can’t blame it solely on the Tories!

Absolutely agree. What a shitshow reading through the thread and seeing all the posters completely ignore the point of the post and gleefully start going on about how great their maths is. Empathy bypass is bang on.

The Tories destroyed the NHS. People voted Labour in to fix it but it can only be done if we get out of the "Tax cuts good / tax rises bad" mindset set by the tabloid press. You get what you pay for. And going private - as you have found - is way more expensive than any tax increase.

Yes, but it’s still lots of people not contributing! Whether by actually doing work or paying taxes.

That's not what unemployment is.... Unemployment is people on job seekers.
Economically inactive includes a lot of students, people who retired before 65, spouses whose husbands or wives pay their living costs, mums of young kids who will go back to work in a few years, as well as long term sick and disabled.

I'm 40, when I was 20 I worked in a job which was massively affected by the NHS being part way through major reform already, so at a guess it's been in major reform of one kind or another for at least 30 years.

I don't think people are resistant to NHS reform, so much as they're just tired of it being touted as in progress for so long and it's just got noticeably worse.

Well that gives a small insight into what privatisation would look like- disjointed and lack of control and less regulated.
Go for it!!!!

Agree with this and privatisation/self funding is on the way. I've noticed now an update on the nhs/patients know best/patient access app there are loads of links to services that you can pay for. I only updated yesterday so haven't fully looked at it.

I discovered recently that DHL now run the patient transport in some parts of London. I was trying to organise transport for a v elderly relative to attend a specialist hospital in the City for preoperative assessment. It was a nightmare and the day before they informed they would not take them. I had to phone the hospital who were also fuming as they had to remove him from the op list. Before this hospital staff would deal with the arrangements but they are unable to get involved now. They advised me to report to the CCG. What a mess.

When it was funded adequately it worked very well. It needs to be properly funded.

The UK's economic inactivity rate was 21.8% between November and January, marginally higher than a year earlier. It means 9.2 million people aged between 16 and 64 in the UK are not in work nor looking for a job. The total figure is more than 700,000 higher than before the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534537#:~:text=The%20UK's%20economic%20inactivity%20rate,than%20before%20the%20coronavirus%20pandemic.

Yeah, I can’t be arsed to have a conversation where people respond to points I haven’t made, you guys are all over the place!

@taxguru Beautifully put, exactly what I was trying to say! You're more eloquent.

@KurtShirty You keep posting random links but I don't think you really get the point - that taxguru has made nicely above.

It's not about 'idealising' other healthcare systems (in fact I clearly stated that various approaches are needed) but having the conversation.

One thing I am clear on is that just 'pouring money' into the NHS isn't going to be sustainable. Yet, discussing any other approaches is unpopular, people see it as a sanctified entity.

And as taxguru pointed out THIS is what's ultimately going to cause sleepwalking into privatisation. More than any active action. Inertia.

Anyway you CBA to discuss it so that's that

Are you including pensioners in your unemployment figures or something @CuttySarcasm ?

There were 1.44m people unemployed in June this year.

Unemployment figures last quarter

Disagree, but cannot be arsed to discuss it further

Though they just closed ours for a while as no NS to manage it.

We already have discharge lounges.

I'm sorry OP and I agree with you.

I've had more than my fair share of experience with the NHS over the last few years with family members and I've been left feeling scared and let down time and again. I've met really wonderful staff but also really really poor, heartless, incompetent and dangerous staff too. The system is wrong and I don't even know where we need to start as the problem is far bigger than just more money.

One example is Urology department. A patient is left suffering with no point of contact other than the GP of A&E. The GP emails Urology to ask for advice of how to treat but even they are ignored. When PALS have been consulted the answer is go to A&E. But this isn't necessarily an emergency. We were actually told in order to speak to a urologist we must present ourselves at A&E. What the fuck system is that? By the time you go through A&E after sitting in a germ infested waiting room for 11 hours you are sicker than when you went in.

I've always championed the NHS and they are amazing at saving lives but I've now seen the other side where the system is harming patients and leaving them with permanent injuries that could be avoided.

Not everything can be done privately.

Someone I know needs surgery for a slipped disc. They're a tree surgeon, so unable to work until it's done, and the NHS wait is 10-12 months, so stand to lose shedloads of money.

A family member offered to pay for them to have the surgery done privately, so they got a private appointment with the surgeon, paid for scans and/or x-rays and stuff, had a second appt to go through what needed doing, and booked a date for the operation. Around a fortnight prior to the surgery date, they had an appointment for pre-op checks at the private hospital. Among the questions was "Are you diabetic?". They are T1 diabetic.

A couple of days later, they got a call from the surgeon's secretary saying that they wouldn't be able to do the operation there, as they didn't have the necessary back up if the diabetes led to problems, so it would have to be done in an NHS hospital where there is intensive care and all sorts of other stuff.

The person concerned has stumped up over £500 that they could ill afford in costs but is no nearer getting it done. Thankfully, they were still on the NHS list, so the waiting time is now down to 8-10 months.

It’s still got fewer beds and spends less than other European countries. There’s been virtually no investment in infrastructure in the last 14 years. It didn’t take long for Johnson’s 40 new hospitals to go by the wayside.

But isn’t it the fifth largest employer in the world? About 1.5 million staff?

They already have this in a lot of sites, e.g. a discharge lounge. It doesn't solve all the problems. Patients are awaiting medical review, physio, OT, package of care, etc. Sometimes they might not be fit for discharge until later in the day.

@Nat6999 The private hospitals can work so efficiently as they're not under anywhere near the same pressure though. Post-op medications can be organised in advance because they're elective procedures, the patient is generally well, they're not supplying any pre-admission medicines, so the ward staff will generally know what needs to be written up. In NHS hospitals medicines like co-codamol, anti-sickness tablets, reflux tablets etc are pre-labelled and can be supplied by nurses where appropriate. So the NHS do aim for efficiency, but there are complicating factors.

It spends less per head than other European countries and has less beds too.

Don't fall prey to the previous Tory propaganda