To be shocked this isn't getting more coverage?

The UK has its issues but the number of men who believe women should not be allowed to speak outside their homes is probably absolutely tiny, even fairly misogynistic men would think you were bonkers for suggesting it.

And, yet, there are women in the UK who are isolated from their friends and families, not allowed to work, not allowed access to SM, not allowed to leave the house or to have a mobile phone by a single man in their life.

I knew a woman a few years ago - our childen did the same hobby. They were fairly wealthy, they had a beautiful home and yet, she wasn't allowed to have a phone. She had no contact with the outside world unless he permitted it.

I wouldn't be so sure that they would all think it bonkers at all.

Ah sorry, for some reason, my post repeated itself!

The crux of it is that women only enjoy equality and women's rights because, and as far as, men allow us to. And we will only ever enjoy them for as long as men allow us to

It's a good question hopefully answered, and I'd be interested to know which countries under this religion are freer for women and girls

I would say the hold of any religion over a society can be linked to how embedded it is for the education (or indoctrination) of children

I'm only quoting your post because it fits and not because I'm directing my reply at you personally.

I've followed this thread with interest and dismay.

The situation women are now facing in Afghaniistan is unimaginable and I agree that, sadly, there is little that can realistically be done to challenge and change it for all the reasons given.

There have been many segues and discussions of other religions and women's rights in general.

I'm not a religious person and I don't have a faith. To my mind, faith is one thing and it brings many people a lot of comfort during difficult times. However, religion is a man made construct that has always been about control. And, invariably, it is 'man' made; men made the rules and men ennforce the rules. And many of those rules impact negatively on women and have done so across the centuries.

I know many Muslims, male and female. The men are exactly what anyone would consider to he kind, loving, reasonable and supportive men. The women who wear the hiijab, burkhas etc are strong, intelligent, witty women who do so by choice and would defend their right to do so. Islam, at its heart, is a peaceful faith. So this is not about Islam but women's rights in general.

There have been discussions on whether similar could happen here and what would happen if 'sharia law' were 'democratically' enforced here and whether it could happen here. Someone explained how it could happen. Before the GE, I read a thread about a woman who had to vote the way her husband told her to. So, in some homes, women's votes are already controlled.

The bottom line for me is that we still only have an illusion of equality.

Women only enjoy equality and women's rights because, and as far as, men allow us to. And we will only ever enjoy them for as long as men allow us to. I'm not referring to individual men in our lives who champion and support us (although there are many, many threads on MN that show how many women are not permitted equality and freedoms in their own lives by the men in their lives) but as a society.

People have already referred to anti abortion laws in the US. The fact that women, in some states, no longer have bodily autonomy and freedom of choice. None of those laws are about protecting unborn babies; they are about controlling women.

There are countries across the world where women can be imprisoned if they suffer a miscarriage.

So many think these atrocities couldn't happen in the 'civilised West' and yet the recent Tickle vs Giggle case in Australia has effectively removed the right of women to organise themselves and meet without men.

Women's sport has been impacted by allowing males to compete in the female categories if those men have wanted to.

In this country there have been attacks on women (by men) who have tried to meet away from men to discuss the protection of women's rights and rights as simple and obvious as the right of women to request a same sex HCPs have been diminished.

One of the markers of a civilised society is single sex toilets. I read on here a few years ago, about a film made in India about women fighting for the right to have female toilets in a rural farming community. This is because women in rural communities have/had to organise themselves to go to the toilet in a field in groups and at certain times of day only to avoid being raped.

Single sex toilets are a marker of a civilised society because they allow women the freedom to be independent without a chaperone. And why do we need a chaperone? And yet, look how quick we have been in the UK (and other countries), whilst in some countries women are fighting for the right to have single sex toilets, to fall over ourselves to abandon and dismantle that right in the name of kindness and equality. and why? Because it's what some men want.

We all know rape is still under reported and/because conviction rates are incredibly low. And a combination of the prevalence of rape myths and concern for the impact a conviction will have on a man's future allows this to happen.

Etc etc etc.

Everytime, the wants of men are put above the needs and rights of women, women's rights are dismantled just a little bit more, our collective voice becomes quieter and the security of our future rights are compromised. It's a sliding scale, the thin end of the wedge, the tip of the iceberg.

Every week, there are reports in the news of women who have been killed by men who sought to control them and many more that don't even make the news because it is so commonplace to not even be 'news' now.

And there are many women who support it because, whilst men control the narrative, our only option is to acquiesce or we lose our jobs, we face threats of/actual violence, including sexual violence, we face risk to our families, or are at risk of the police turning up to question us about 'wrong think' or actual imprisonment. Or death.

Whether the vehicle is religion, or ideology, or a desire to be kind, or just plain old fear, all that needs to happen for women's rights to be eroded is for men to make that choice. People who speak up against the oppression of women; the removal of women's rights are dismissed and villified with accusations of 'phobia', asked why were not being kind, or blamed - we are framed as the problem and controlled, silenced and punished.

This is not about the men we know individually, the men we love, have raised, trust and who love us in return. We've all seen the photos of women in Iran in the 1970s compared with today. There is no reason why these oppressions couldn't happen anywhere if enough men want it.

Because I've followed this thread with interest and dismay.

The situation women are now facing in Afghaniistan is unimaginable and I agree that, sadly, there is little that can realistically be done to challenge and change it for all the reasons given.

There have been many segues and discussions of other religions and women's rights in general.

I'm not a religious person and ii don't have a faith. To my mind, faith is one thing and it brings many people a lot of comfort during difficult times. However, religion is a man made construct that has always been about control. And, invariably, it is 'man' made; men made the rules and men ennforce the rules. And many of those rules impact negatively on women and have done so across the centuries.

I know many Muslims, male and female. The men are exactly what anyone would consider to he kind, loving, reasonable and supportive men. The women who wear the hiijab, burkhas etc are strong, intelligent, witty women who do so by choice and would defend their right to do so. Islam, at its heart, is a peaceful faith. So this is not about Islam but women's rights in general.

There have been discussions on whether similar could happen here and what would happen if 'sharia law' were 'democratically' enforced here and whether it could happen here. Someone explained how it could happen. Before the GE, I read a thread about a woman who had to vote the way her husband told her to. So, in some homes, women's votes are already controlled.

The bottom line for me is that we still only have an illusion of equality.

Women only enjoy equality and women's rights because, and as far as, men allow us to. And we will only ever enjoy them for as long as men allow us to. I'm not referring to individual men in our lives who champion and support us (although there are many, many threads on MN that show how many women are not permitted equality and freedoms in their own lives by the men in their lives) but as a society.

People have already referred to anti abortion laws in the US. The fact that women, in some states, no longer have bodily autonomy and freedom of choice. None of those laws are about protecting unborn babies; they are about controlling women.

There are countries across the world where women can be imprisoned if they suffer a miscarriage.

So many think these atrocities couldn't happen in the 'civilised West' and yet the recent Tickle vs Giggle case in Australia has effectively removed the right of women to organise themselves and meet without men.

Women's sport has been impacted by allowing males to compete in the female categories if those men have wanted to.

In this country there have been attacks on women (by men) who have tried to meet away from men to discuss the protection of women's rights and rights as simple and obvious as the right of women to request a same sex HCPs have been diminished.

One of the markers of a civilised society is single sex toilets. I read on here a few years ago, about a film made in India about women fighting for the right to have female toilets. This is because women in rural communities have/had to organise themselves to go to the toilet in a field in groups to avoid being raped.

Single sex toilets are a marker of a civilised society because they allow women the freedom to be independent without a chaperone. And why do we need a chaperone? And yet, look how quick we have been in the UK (and other countries), whilst in some countries women are fighting for the right to have single sex toilets, to fall over ourselves to abandon and dismantle that right in the name of kindness and equality. and why? Because it's what some men want.

We all know rape is still under reported and /because conviction rates are incredibly low. And a combination of the prevalence of rape myths and concern for the impact a conviction will have on a man's future allows this to happen.

Etc etc etc.

Everytime, the wants of men are put above the needs and rights of women, women's rights are dismantled just a little bit more, our colective voice becomes quieter, the security of our future rights are compromised.

Every week, there are reports in the news of women who have been killed by men who sought to control them and many more that don't even make the news because it is so commonplace to not even be 'news' now.

And there are many women who support it because, whilst men control the narrative, our only option is to acquiesce or we lose our jobs, we face threats of/actual violence, including sexual violence, we face risk to our families, or are at risk of the police turning up to question us about 'wrong think' or actual imprisonment. Or death.

Whether the vehicle is religion, or ideology, or a desire to be kind, or just plain old fear, all that needs to happen for women's rights to be eroded is for men to make that choice. People who speak up against the oppression of women; the removal of women's rights are dismissed and villoified with accusations of 'phobia', accusations of not being kind, or blamed - we are framed as the problem and controlled, silenced and punished.

This is not about the men we know individually, the men we love, have raised, trust and who love us in return. We've all seen the photos of women in Iran in the 1970s compared with today. There is no reason why these oppressions couldn't happen anywhere if enough men wanted it.

But why does this particular interpretation of Islam result in such uniform devastation and oppression, compared with literal interpretation of other religions which tends to either be fairly peaceful or a small minority? That’s what I’m asking, and I’m open to answers.

To be fair to the other poster, extreme religions (or any religion) do not spontaneously emerge from the aether. Look at who is interpreting these religions and driving the extremist views.

It's also a gross oversimplification to ascribe all these problems to Islam as a whole. Like Christianity it's a religion of multiple interpretations and sects, and some have more extreme positions than others. And extreme interpretations of Islam and Christianity have one thing in common, they always and without exception transfer power and authority to an exclusive group of men and men only. All of the Abrahamic religions have inherent patriarchal power structures.

I think conflating it to all men underplays dramatically the extreme ideology and practise

If I were to ask you where you or the girls you know would prefer to grow up it's an easy choice

That difference is due to an extreme regime. I would fear the Taliban without a doubt, more than many other things. Look at their impact on women and girls.

Yes but leading the charge in this are Islamic countries, by a very long way. Comparing the UK with its legalisation of distasteful or degrading pornography to a country which won’t even let women speak outside their house is nonsensical. And pornography isn’t legalised because apparently a deity compels us to do it. You’re comparing apples and oranges. Mistreatment or inadequate rights for women are a problem world over, but this specific type of extreme and theocratic oppression seems overwhelmingly specific to Islam.

The UK has its issues but the number of men who believe women should not be allowed to speak outside their homes is probably absolutely tiny, even fairly misogynistic men would think you were bonkers for suggesting it. The difference is there is no extreme religion to fuel the misogyny. We can agree perhaps it’s an issue of the 2 together - men plus extreme religion - but it isn’t ’just men by themselves’.

The weaponry and training were for the army

Indeed, @EasternStandard, and that would be the army who the west spent time and $$$$ training in the hope they'd be enabled to help their own country towards a better future

Only it turned out that this was never their intention and many favoured tthe rule of the warlords instead, just as they've done for millennia

No, many may not have been as extreme, but PLENTY of countries have treated women as second class. I mean just look at womens right to vote, or how hateful and violent porn is these days, or legalised rape in marriage, or the fact that in America, our great Leader of the Free World, (you know, the one that’s NEVER had a female leader) allows grown men to still marry little girls in some states. And if you look back over history you will see it everywhere, time and time again. It is men, they are the problem, their relentless desire to control and oppress women in order to make themselves feel important.

Yes this part is key. The weaponry and training were for the army

Agree with pp. You are skipping over the incredibly dangerous belief system that motivates the Taliban and those who agree with them

But every country has men in it, and very very few are like Afghanistan.

It’s not religion that creates this, it’s inadequate, misogynistic, hateful MEN with too much power. Every single fucking time, it’s men.

@Lms63738

Afghanistan was invaded because big deference needed payday off the taxpayers back, a bit like Ukraine now.

You make some decent points, but entirely invalidated by that bit of pro-Putin nonsense you snuck in here.

@Lms63738 which ‘mates’? People always say ‘mates’ but never specify who or back it up with any evidence whatsoever.

Agree. Excusing fundamentalist Islam and the death cults that have turned entire countries into hellholes does not help people now. The Inquisitions were in the 15th century. Islam was aldo busy invading and brutalising other countries ( although ironically the Mughuls were more cultured and progressive than the Taliban are now). There are no Christian countries that violently impose fundamentalist Christianity on the population on pain of death, or sponsir terrorism around the world this century. The vast majority of people killed by Islamic fundamentalists are Muslim. Are they saying ' Oh never mind. Christians were worse 300 years ago so let's just put up with it'? I agree Afghani men in the West should be protesting and standing up fir their own women. But they aren't. They have left their own women and children to be brutalised in a country where they would have been free to do what they like and are living life in the West.

In all fairness they were left in the ‘care’ of the Afghan army who then deserted.

This. And the Afghan men both here in the west & in Afghanistan must want & be the change if anything is to ever change.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, it's terrible behaviour and treatment but that's just to our standards. They more than likely think the west live terribly and in a lot of ways we do.

You can't expect the rest of the world to be westernised, you must let them live how they want to live. The west are so arrogant to think that they can dictate to the rest of the world how they should live.

All awful, all very much in the past, all condemned and none turned entire countries into theocracies with the sheer scale of murder/torture/oppression that jihadi groups have.

I’m finding the comparison of groups like ISIS to the Magdalene laundries to be a bit like when you discuss male violence and somebody pops up to say ‘women can be violent too’. Yes but the sheer scale and extent of the issue is entirely different to the point there’s no meaningful comparison.

Ok. I'm happy to be informed. Is it that the Afghans haven't been killing each other for centuries bit or what?

They can't even leave their front doors without a male chaperone, they haven't a hope of getting to a border for safe crossing. Winter is coming & winters in Afghanistan are extremely harsh, these women are literally living hell on earth.

It doesn't sound harsh. It sounds ignorant.