Page 3 | To think some people, especially in the past, don't see children as people with any autonomy?

Lovebeingwithyou · 2024-08-27T11:31:40+00:00

It was another thread that got me thinking. But so many times I see on here and in real life grandparents who see their grandchildren as a do over of their own parenting. They want a turn with the baby/child, sometimes with no regard to what's best for the child. Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying this about all grandparents. Most are very loving and very supportive. Also I'm not just talking about grandparents, but also more dated styles of parenting too. Things like expecting newborn babies to simply fall into a routine that suits the parents. They can't be hungry or have a full happy do why are they crying? No acknowledgment that this tiny human might just need to be near their mum or dad and need to be cuddled/fed on demand. Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table. Not understanding that it's normal for toddlers and young children to sometimes have tantrums and that snacking/shouting and screaming back won't teach them anything. I could give many more examples. Thankfully there is much more understanding of child development these days but I do still see hear of these sorts of ideas.

Smartiepants79 · 27/08/2024 22:39

This reply has been deleted

This is the work of a previously banned poster.

Their needs, should not come second. They should be fed and warm and safe and loved. They should be taken to the doctor when ill and the dentist when needed. They should be educated and appropriately clothed.
The problem is that we’re not very good at telling the difference between needs and wants any more. We have so much stuff and even the poorest and cleverest of us still struggle to separate needs and desires.

Combattingthemoaners · 27/08/2024 21:13

Zanatdy · 27/08/2024 15:56

Do you think you can only raise polite respectful children if you clip them round the ear? I let my children share a bed with me until they didn’t want to anymore (DD was 12, DS 3), never forced them to eat food they didn’t like and never policed their internet / phone use or checked any messages. The result is two polite, high achieving kids who I really cannot remember when I had to last tell them off. DS turned 20 2wks ago and I didn’t have to tell him off once in his teenage years, not once. Anyone who meets my kids will describe them as polite and respectful, it’s not just my own view of them. I don’t know why people always have this view that you can only have that if you shout at your child and smack them.

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It isn’t “policing” it is safeguarding.

PolitePearlMoose · 27/08/2024 17:58

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This is the work of a previously banned poster.

drspouse · 27/08/2024 17:47

How annoying, someone quoted me but was deleted! Hope it wasn't my actual post.

littlefishyonalittledishy · 27/08/2024 17:45

@Hucklemuckle I was worried my comment would be taken that way. I'm talking about in relation to feelings. As I do with others , I will see them as an extension of myself in order to treat people how I would expect to be treated. If that makes sense.
In all other ways, my child is her own person with her own likes and dislikes. But I will not force her to be okay with things she is not okay with.. because I wouldn't do that to myself, so why do that to a child ?

EasySkankin · 27/08/2024 17:13

feellikeanalien · 27/08/2024 14:30

If you are referring to my post which is what this is in response to then I suggest that you don't make rude and incorrect assumptions about people. If this was a general comment then I agree.

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I was responding to “I'm talking more about people not understanding child development, especially with babies and toddlers.”. There are a lot of people on this site giving ridiculous parenting advice where they seem to believe that babies and toddlers are capable of advanced moral reasoning and self-regulation. I think some people find children and their parents inconvenient and irritating, wish they’d all just disappear or behave like robots, which is a bit bizarre when they choose this site for online socialising.

SmileyHappyPeopleInTheSun · 27/08/2024 17:04

I think it was often part of parenting culture in 70s - expecting babies to cry it out and settle and babies in toddler fitting round family bit more- also think some grandparents forget what young children are like with time and then rapidly re-learn.

My IL were certainly better when kids could clearly talk and state their views. Plus bf clearly threw IL and parents - very different to 4 hour feeds and weaning as IL and DP insist was normal at 3 months.

Our parents weren't terrible with plate clearing but Dad remember rationing and felt he had to do it himself despite weight issues because that was part of his childhood.

But agree with PP many not all but many modern parents seem to struggle with family balance and frankly saying no and pandering too much to children - it's a balance and kids not learning how to behave in many environments isn't long term in their interests.

ginasevern · 27/08/2024 16:59

redalex261 · 27/08/2024 16:45

It’s balance. Being seen and not heard, whacked, forced to eat cold food - no. Expecting children to behave, enforcing boundaries and basic respect for adults, letting children express an opinion even if it’s not going to always change an outcome - yes.

Allowing unfettered access to the online world, deferring to their their opinions and wants regardless of consequence and protecting them from all forms of hardship, discomfort and mistake - very bad.

Today’s crop of children and young adults are (not) coping with an unprecedented mental health crisis. Frankly I fear a great many of them will not become functioning adult contributors to society.

For a 10yo to be incapable of going to the corner shop to buy a pint of milk without having the vapours - very sad.

My thoughts exactly and I don't see how anyone in their right minds could argue with it - but don't hold your breath.

redalex261 · 27/08/2024 16:45

It’s balance. Being seen and not heard, whacked, forced to eat cold food - no. Expecting children to behave, enforcing boundaries and basic respect for adults, letting children express an opinion even if it’s not going to always change an outcome - yes.

Allowing unfettered access to the online world, deferring to their their opinions and wants regardless of consequence and protecting them from all forms of hardship, discomfort and mistake - very bad.

Today’s crop of children and young adults are (not) coping with an unprecedented mental health crisis. Frankly I fear a great many of them will not become functioning adult contributors to society.

For a 10yo to be incapable of going to the corner shop to buy a pint of milk without having the vapours - very sad.

Teanbiscuits33 · 27/08/2024 16:35

ginasevern · 27/08/2024 16:31

@FOJN

"I'm always intrigued by the recent past being portrayed as if it was centuries ago, particularly by people who didn't live through it. Children were not being sent up chimneys and fed on bread and water in the 1970's."

I know, some of the comments about the 60's, 70's and 80's crack me up. I think one poster upthread said that "children were seen and not heard" in the 70's. I just hope for her sake and grasp of general knowledge that she meant the 1870's! Jeez.

But that might have been accurate of her own experience in the 70’s, perhaps her parents were very strict and so she thinks that’s normal. I know my dad said his parents had a similar attitude and he was born mid-60’s.

KimberleyClark · 27/08/2024 16:35

JemimaTiggywinkles · 27/08/2024 15:23

Just a quick note on children having to eat all of their dinner regardless of if it tastes nice. I think most of us forget that food is incredibly cheap and has been for the last 40 or so years. In previous generations we had to eat what was available because letting children suffer malnutrition is far worse than insisting they eat perfectly healthy food they don't like the taste of. It took a generation or two for the "clear your plate" mentality to be broken. But if food ever becomes as expensive or scarce again as it was in my grandparents day they you can get your last pound that kids (and adults) would be forced to clear their plates.

This. Parents trying to feed children on wartime rations (which lasted well into the 50s) could not afford to indulge their children's food idiosyncrasies.

ginasevern · 27/08/2024 16:31

@FOJN

"I'm always intrigued by the recent past being portrayed as if it was centuries ago, particularly by people who didn't live through it. Children were not being sent up chimneys and fed on bread and water in the 1970's."

I know, some of the comments about the 60's, 70's and 80's crack me up. I think one poster upthread said that "children were seen and not heard" in the 70's. I just hope for her sake and grasp of general knowledge that she meant the 1870's! Jeez.

Sahara123 · 27/08/2024 16:28

cupcaske123 · 27/08/2024 12:55

Completely disagree. When I was growing up, your needs were secondary to adults, you got a clip round the ear for cheek and you did what you were told. Children respected adults.

Now I see parents who don't want to traumatise their children with boundaries. Never say no. Take second place to their children and pathologies everything.

Yes i agree with this . I work in a school, and appreciate that things needed to change from the seen and not heard days, but i really worry that things have gone too far the other way.

Original poster

Lovebeingwithyou · 27/08/2024 16:27

mathanxiety · 27/08/2024 15:43

@Lovebeingwithyou

I agree - exMIL boasted to me that she never got up in the night to feed babies or attend to them if they cried. Her one aim in life was to keep a spotless house and cook an excellent dinner every evening. Nobody and nothing got in the way of that.

This is the sort of thing I mean. I know someone who preached this. They regularly boasted how they fed, changed baby then put the baby in its own room, shut the door and didn't come back (or allow the mum to see to the baby) until morning.

No acknowledgment that a baby might have any feelings behind milk or a soiled nappy.

Same person also believe that you spoil a baby by holding it too much.

I don't really understand d how anyone can think like this in this day and age.

OP posts:

sunseaandsoundingoff · 27/08/2024 16:24

People only have children in the first place because they want someone to control.

They just call grandparents more controlling because the grandparents try to interfere and take control themselves. Over many generations the control has changed as to what's controlled and how it's done, it's still there.

Original poster

Lovebeingwithyou · 27/08/2024 16:09

benefitstaxcredithelp · 27/08/2024 16:05

There are some very sad negative comments on here about children such as

“ if left to their own devices, most children won't make good decisions about what to eat, what to wear, whether they go to school etc.”
and
“children don’t respect adults”

I don’t agree at all. I think the opposite in fact. I think (ex teacher here) children are born respectful and able to make good decisions with some guidance. I think it’s your version of what constitutes ‘good decisions’ and ‘respect’ that is warped. We adults always think we know best but do we?

This is certainly true of my own DC,their friends, my nieces and nephews and all of the children I’ve taught. They are all polite, respectful, sensible kids who are having to navigate a world of very high pressure in school, scary environmental issues, pandemics, constant bad news, increasing poverty and inequality and the online domain. Most are doing really well considering all of that.

Respect is a two-way street and can only be earned and not demanded.

Lovely to see a positive comment about children out of a lot of negative.

I very much agree with what you say and this is my experience.

OP posts:

Aria999 · 27/08/2024 16:09

lol @MontagueMoo sorry you had that experience.

Sounds like that one belongs on the famous 'cutted up pear' thread 😁

Original poster

Lovebeingwithyou · 27/08/2024 16:07

@Devilsmommy it's good that you didn't fear your parents and I know that smacking was used in the past but not all parents were brutes just because they smacked.

I believe that my children respect adults. I say this because they have been well behaved and polite.

I do see bad behaviour but then I always did. Behaviour was a problem in the 80s when I was at school.

OP posts:

Teanbiscuits33 · 27/08/2024 16:06

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 27/08/2024 16:03

@@Teanbiscuits33

‘You said you had capital punishment as kids’

Wow , that is harsh.Surprising they survived, really.

I meant corporal 🤣 I don’t know why I said capital!

benefitstaxcredithelp · 27/08/2024 16:05

There are some very sad negative comments on here about children such as

“ if left to their own devices, most children won't make good decisions about what to eat, what to wear, whether they go to school etc.”
and
“children don’t respect adults”

I don’t agree at all. I think the opposite in fact. I think (ex teacher here) children are born respectful and able to make good decisions with some guidance. I think it’s your version of what constitutes ‘good decisions’ and ‘respect’ that is warped. We adults always think we know best but do we?

This is certainly true of my own DC,their friends, my nieces and nephews and all of the children I’ve taught. They are all polite, respectful, sensible kids who are having to navigate a world of very high pressure in school, scary environmental issues, pandemics, constant bad news, increasing poverty and inequality and the online domain. Most are doing really well considering all of that.

Respect is a two-way street and can only be earned and not demanded.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 27/08/2024 16:03

@@Teanbiscuits33

‘You said you had capital punishment as kids’

Wow , that is harsh.Surprising they survived, really.

FOJN · 27/08/2024 16:02

I think there is a balance to be struck and I don't think we are there yet. Children seem more anxious, stressed and unhappy than ever. My parents certainly had firm boundaries with me but I was never in any doubt I was loved.

I wonder if giving children too much autonomy overwhelms them, sometimes they need the adults to make decisions for them so that they can feel safe that adults are in charge and nothing bad will happen to them.

I'm always intrigued by the recent past being portrayed as if it was centuries ago, particularly by people who didn't live through it. Children were not being sent up chimneys and fed on bread and water in the 1970's.

Clementine22 · 27/08/2024 16:00

benefitstaxcredithelp · 27/08/2024 15:46

Disagree with this very much.

There were just as many children and young people with mental health issues but it just wasn’t talked about. No awareness at all. Today there is so much awareness. There were kids when I was growing up with drug addiction, eating disorders, tics, alcohol addiction, family problems but they had to put up and shut up. Those same people are now either deceased or are in dysfunctional relationships or have alcohol dependence. And in the generation prior to mine many were brought up by wartime parents who had plenty of trauma from not just wartime but also from being raised themselves by Victorian era parents. Alcohol dependence is rife in that generation now.

I agree that children were given more independence but this wasn’t necessarily the positive thing you’re making it out to be. Yes it meant a higher degree of independence at a young age but also meant many many young kids were exposed to things they should never have been exposed to. I include myself and my friends in that. That freedom was age-inappropriate.

With regards to school refusal, have you read all the threads on here about how bad the education system is today? Have you read all the threads about how teachers are leaving in droves due to the bullying by senior management and by the relentless stress and pressure from ofsted and the ridiculous amount of assessments etc? It’s not just dysfunctional for these adults is equally as dysfunctional for the students.

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I agree, I went to school in the 80s / 90s and there were no end of issues with kids getting into trouble with drugs, other inappropriate stuff, being rude to teachers (2 of our teachers were badly assaulted by pupils) and we had one child in our school who committed suicide at age 12. So MH problems have always been there in some form.

There is a balance to be had, yes children are people but yes they also need boundaries.

I don’t think the “clip round the ear” for being disrespectful gains you respect at all, many people I know don’t have respect for their parent doing that. And the whole “seen and not heard” approach from way back isn’t about setting boundaries, it’s just about parents wanting more me time.

My view is you get your kids as children for 18 years in essence … so what are you wanting them to remember from that time.

MontagueMoo · 27/08/2024 15:57

Aria999 · 27/08/2024 15:55

@MontagueMoo of course not and OP made very clear she wasn't saying it did.

You can treat people with respect whilst maintaining boundaries as to the sort of behavior you expect from them. We manage this in our relationships with difficult adults.

I was making a tongue in cheek joke (albeit out of real, bitter experience), but sorry if it did not come off that way.

Zanatdy · 27/08/2024 15:56

cupcaske123 · 27/08/2024 12:55

Completely disagree. When I was growing up, your needs were secondary to adults, you got a clip round the ear for cheek and you did what you were told. Children respected adults.

Now I see parents who don't want to traumatise their children with boundaries. Never say no. Take second place to their children and pathologies everything.

Do you think you can only raise polite respectful children if you clip them round the ear? I let my children share a bed with me until they didn’t want to anymore (DD was 12, DS 3), never forced them to eat food they didn’t like and never policed their internet / phone use or checked any messages. The result is two polite, high achieving kids who I really cannot remember when I had to last tell them off. DS turned 20 2wks ago and I didn’t have to tell him off once in his teenage years, not once. Anyone who meets my kids will describe them as polite and respectful, it’s not just my own view of them. I don’t know why people always have this view that you can only have that if you shout at your child and smack them.