Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

Surely that’s just the basic bar of being a decent father and human being? Why are men celebrated for doing the bare minimum that women do day after day?

YABU. I'm happily married to a great husband and I have a lovely teenage son. I also agree with about 98% of all the LTB responses on MN and have given many myself. MN has certainly opened my eyes to how many women are in relationships with terrible men. Responses are justifiably harsh, because they are responding about men who are bad enough to have threads posted about them on the Relationships board, not men in general.

Anyone who reads MN and concludes that women who tell an OP to LTB are 'man haters' is suffering from a serious lack of critical thinking.

@Beljin

Obviously it's still an issue, but not a major issue, and likewise not an issue that's likely to ever be completely resolved.

How about male sexual violence towards women? Is that a 'major issue' or not in your opinion?

But the crucial point I'm making is that it's not indicative of societal misogyny, as it's not weighted towards women. I fact the opposite is true.

Again, how about male sexual violence? That is hugely weighted towards women when it comes to the victim's gender (sex, to be more accurate).

Would you say it's indicative of societal misogyny that despite rape and sexual assault of women being so commonplace (1 in 4 women are victims in their adult life in the UK) conviction rates are low and custodial sentences are woefully short?

Do you understand that murder rates are not the sole measure of violence against women?

Meh, this is just the way people are. I think I read a poll once where something like 85% of people thought they were nice. Most people think they are a great person because that is who they want to be.

Womens’ (often) horrible experiences with men will affect their thinking when they respond to a post on here about cheating, abusive behaviour or being lazy at home etc. You can’t help but refer back to what you know.

It’s human nature to love your child and think the best of them.

Now just join the dots.

There’s a lot of man bashing on here but also posters saying more positive stuff.

I’ve been married for over 30 years but I’ve never felt the DH was anything but a modern man. We always shared the household tasks. I never expected him to be a driver or an expert gardener or diy person. We respect each other’s careers. I expect to be mildly mocked if I say “Men!” as a barely audible criticism of his dishwasher stacking skills. I respect he never says ‘women!’ and has never expected me to dust or clean the bathroom unless he’s away. I think he is a good role model for DS - as am I - and I especially think this because we have careers not jobs. I respect others do things differently and wish them the happiness of having a life partner who is on the same page as them.

I'm proud to say the my married son is a good dad, never to busy to play with the kids, cook dinner or tidy up. He was never to proud to change a nappy or look after his wife and kids when they're ill.

My DiL told me that people have asked to have him when she's fed up of him 😁😎

Neither is a huge issue, as I've pointed out. We're talking about a very tiny minority of men who commit homicide. Something like 5 or so per million.

Obviously it's still an issue, but not a major issue, and likewise not an issue that's likely to ever be completely resolved.

But the crucial point I'm making is that it's not indicative of societal misogyny, as it's not weighted towards women. I fact the opposite is true.

People say all sorts of shit online they wouldn't say in reality, mumsnet is no different. I think loads of people love a "leave the bastard" narrative and don't read OPs properly 🤷‍♀️.

@Beljin

Yes, the common denominator is it's men committing the violence. Men are more prone to violence than women. But the target is actually far less likely to be a woman than a man.

The violence is a gendered issue though, isn't it. You've said so yourself in the statement above, in different words. It was odd to claim otherwise previously.

Also, the percentage of people - or men if you will - who commit homicide is actually very low. There is no pandemic or emergency, most certainly not for women.

You're speaking about murder.

The pandemic of male violence against women and girls isn't limited to murder though, surely you understand that?

97% of women are sexually harassed in their lifetime, 1 in 4 are raped or sexually assaulted in their adult life. By men.

You don't think that's a pandemic?

I was about to post the same when I saw your reply HAHA. Christ.

Tbh if my son was aggreesive, violent or abusive in a relationship with partner I would call him much worse things than a wanker.

Some men are great, some are shit. You just need to call things their real name.

Yes, the common denominator is it's men committing the violence. Men are more prone to violence than women. But the target is actually far less likely to be a woman than a man.

Also, the percentage of people - or men if you will - who commit homicide is actually very low. There is no pandemic or emergency, most certainly not for women. It's just that violent humans exist and we'll never entirely get rid of them.

Exactly. It took me a while to grasp that this is actually a woman-bashing thread, what with all the faux stupidity about 'not understanding' you can't assume members of a site with eight million unique monthly users are all the same. By the time I stopped reading, 'women do it too' had made its inevitable appearance along with 'blame the mothers' and a few takes on #BeKindToMen.

Maybe OP and her/his sidekicks could go back to whatever Mens Rights forum they came from, to discuss the merits of making women's voices illegal like the Afghan government just has.

@Beljin

In the UK there are twice as many men killed by other men than women killed by men. So to claim this is some kind of gendered issue or mysogyny is simply being untethered from reality. If anything women are actually far safer.

Men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence against both women and men.

Male violence against other men is a huge issue.

Male violence against women is a huge issue.

What's the common denominator? Too many men being violent, in massively disproportionate rates in comparison to the gender split in the population.

So it is a 'gendered issue', isn't it? In that one gender (well, sex class to be accurate) is overwhelmingly more likely to inflict violence than the other.

Oh and I have to work additionally hard as it turns out his father is a misogynist who hates women.

I do have a disdain for men in general and my son is not exempt as I see the self entitlement that society allows him come to the fore quite often. However, I am attempting to support him grow to see this and reflect upon his own behaviour.

I'm a mum of 3 boys and I'm trying to raise them to be gentlemen because some of the men not all.. I did meet one who was OK but most of them are awful. Asking for nudes, being crude before you have even exchanged a few messages let alone met.. talking to loads of women.. the ghosting.. Asking for money etc. Tbh I've had enough

Haven't read the thread, but it is because I have 3 sons that I hold men to such high standards. I don't want my boys to grow into angry, inadequate men.
So much of what is called "double standards" is just failing to recognise the vast inequalities men and women face. Women are tired of being as agony aunts, then berated for not giving the advice permission the man was looking for. Women don't exist to make men's lives easier.

Sorry - who is it doing all the murdering again?

Look, I have some great men in my life including a wonderful DH. I’m not in the least bit bitter and I don’t have any kind of ‘agenda’, but I can see that - as a class of people men tend to be the more violent, more aggressive, more problematic. We also still live in a world that favours (largely straight, white) men, patriarchy and all that, so I really don’t think a few anti-men posts on mumsnet is doing them any lasting damage as a sex. Maybe a few get their feelings hurt - not nice but honestly I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

I’ve always found the double standards thing to be bullshit too. There are as many posters here who are determined that a woman’s place is in the wrong, and who passionately defend a man’s wife to do zero housework/ parenting because ‘they work’, to sleep in a separate room from their newborn and never be disturbed because ‘they work’, to maintain inappropriate friendships with younger female colleagues (don’t be so controlling!), to watch porn, to visit stripclubs etc etc - as there are ‘man bashing’ ones. Don’t get me wrong there’s plenty of both - but they’re different posters with different opinions so it’s not ‘double standards’ is it?

The only agenda was yours. Making out that parenting is only down to mothers.

This started because of a comment blaming women for the way they raise sons. It was pointed out that children have 2 parents. How could it only be ones fault?

Then you claimed that usually the men are out working. It’s since been pointed out that working doesn’t mean you don’t parent. And that many mothers work. So still both mother and father would be responsible for the child’s upbringing.

You claimed that men working meant they weren’t bringing the children up and that you daughter was a sahm. Again, it was pointed out that even if only the man works both are raising the kids. But you say he does parent when he isn’t at work. As he should. The only person claiming men aren’t responsible for parenting was you. That was your agenda.

So back to the point. If parenting is the issue when it comes to men who behave poorly, it’s not just down to the mother. It’s down to both parents. Glad we agree.

I haven't read the thread about the kicking yet, and I'm glad the OP of that is getting support.
But very recently there was a man posting who was clearly being treated terribly by his wife. No real grey area there. But within the first few responses, and then repeated regularly, people were posting 'I'd like to hear her side of the story', so immediately doubting him. And there were the posts saying ' she's probably exhausted, I bet she had to do everything'. But it turned out that no, he did everything. But that was ignored or assumed to be a lie.
That really wouldn't have happened if a woman had posted the exact same OP about her husband's treatment of her.