To think the time has come to abolish the NHS healthcare model

But people are already being prevented from accessing it as there aren’t the services available.

There could be some exemptions for people who genuinely can’t afford it. But someone was saying upthread people could afford to pay more tax if they gave up Amazon Prime, Netflix etc - people would have to do the same for healthcare.

If people pay for a GP appointment they will expect to be seen on time Ditto if its a telephone appointment. They will expect an actual time not AM or PM. Which is already ridiculous anyway

I too think we have reached a pass where money has to change hands, where it can, to redress the power balance.

Yep @newmummycwharf1 I agree with you too.

Paying even a small amount for an appointment would make people think twice before cancelling. Problem is that GP practices won't want or be able to police it and so it would need to be done via the NHS app or similar.

Obviously adults in receipt of certain benefits would be exempt, e.g. PIP, etc.

And removes the basic tenet on which the NHS is founded. It will simplify prevent those who need healthcare most from accessing it. £5 or £10 isn’t a small amount to many people.

@ExpressCheckout to be fair, we pay significant amounts of tax and will Co tinge to do so into retirement My AXA premium is about £3,200 and it affords me better value and better peace of mind.

More money is needed. That should be via taxes and personal contributions. Taxes distances the user - and it is seen as free and abused - both by users and staff.

I maintain that there has to be a system where people can pay a small amount- £5, £10 towards their appointments. Apart from raising revenue, it changes the relationship/contract.

Thanks @RosesAndHellebores (great name) I agree with every point you are making here.

I have worked for the NHS all my life, and now at an age when I need to use it far more than I'd like to. The attitudes of some (obviously not all) NHS staff are terrible, as if - as you imply - they are doing me a favour.

Thing is, people don't want to pay more tax, and I do understand many people can't. However, the majority can - but they might need to sacrifice their Netflix, Amazon Prime, foreign holiday, pricey phones and one or two luxuries.

@ExpressCheckout if I pay more tax for the NHS then I expect to see a direct correlation with improved standards. We have a second home in France. Frankly the difference in attitude of medical staff in France is extraordinary notwithstanding better clinical standards.

NHS staff do not do the public a favour, they provide services which are free only at the point of delivery. The attitudes would not be tolerated elsewhere.

In many respects, the Britiah oylubkic have the service they deserve due to decades of misplaced gratitude on the basis of receiving free treatment.

NHS expenditure increased significantly over the last 14 years.

So, let's presume that more money for the NHS would help.
Where does this money come from?

Governments have three options:

(1) Higher taxes
(2) Spending cuts elsewhere
(3) Higher government borrowing

Which would you choose, and why?

The GDP per capita of France is very similar to that of the UK (according to the World Bank it is actually lower than the UK) but France invests 25% more per capita in healthcare than the UK does.

Despite Germany, Norway etx investing more in their healthcare system per capita than the UK, their citizens still have co-pays for various aspects. That tells you all you need to know about the viability of paying for everything via general taxation alone

Fucking hell thats horrific

The "per capita" average wealth in the UK is sixteenth in the World. Behind Belgium and France, Netherlands, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, etc.

@Jumpingthruhoops and @RosesAndHellebores And still you don't understand that the NHS has been underfunded to the tune of billions of pounds a year compared with health services in the rest of Europe and compared with other "rich" countries. Many of the inefficiencies, the problems of conditions being missed, and the "uncaring" staff are directly due to the NHS being far too under-resourced for it to operate safely. The National Health Service has been allowed to disintegrate and become the National Sickness Service - preventative healthcare has been pushed out by the almost impossible task of dealing just with those who are already sick.

This is a political choice, made by politicians (and for the benefit of doubt, I mean politicians of all parties) who spread the lie that it is possible to have "Rolls Royce" services for pennies, and ultimately a choice made by people who believe them and vote for them. Then there are those who believe that their wealth somehow makes them immune to sickness, accidents and disease and who are happy to pay extra so that they get better treatment rather than pay a bit extra in taxes for the benefit of everyone.

@Jumpingthruhoops - so your treatment was paid for through your employer, but what happens if you change jobs, are sacked or your company closes? From personal experience, I can tell you that the private health insurers will refuse to cover you under a new policy for any existing conditions - so ongoing treatment for something like cancer immediately stops - and will charge a premium based on what they already know about you to agree to any new policy (assuming that they even agree to cover you at all).

That the 6th wealthiest country on the planet has a waiting list of 7 million people, over 10% of the population, with people waiting weeks to see a GP and months for treatment is nothing short of a scandal - and is something that no other country in the developed world (with the possible exception of the USA) is prepared to accept.

100% this! 👏👏

Funnily enough, when you're close to death, you tend not to think about those things 🤷‍♀️
My shoddy treatment was nothing to do with money and everything to do with my encountering 'caring professionals' who were neither 'caring' or 'professional'.

You can wang on about all the 'whataboutery' you like. The uncomfortable truth is that private healthcare saved my life - and I would happily pay more for what is, in my view, a priceless service. Similarly, prior to that my husband had spinal surgery that simply isn't available on the NHS. He's a high-rate taxpayer, too.

I don't have any major ailments, and my policy is paid for via my employer, so I don't envisage running into any problems with my policy any time soon.
One thing I do know is, if I never have any dealings with the NHS ever again, it will be too soon.

That’s exactly the point I made. Why did you quote my post?

Whatever! I was just giving my own opinion and experience which I have every right to! You can't police other users of a public forum just to suit your own viewpoint!

Please don’t denigrate my experience and gratitude to suit your agenda @taxguru. There was absolutely no need to quote my post. It doesn’t support your diatribe.

As many people say, they only "jump into action" when it becomes a life threatening dire situation.

A few years before my FIL got cancer, he had a bowel blockage which meant he couldn't keep food down, was in agony, and would throw up anything he ate. He languished in hospital for weeks whilst a succession of different doctors came along, ordered tests (sometimes different, sometimes the same). He got so bad, they had to start "feeding" him via injections to keep him alive. All the signs pointed to a blocked bowel, but they kept doing scans and x-rays and couldn't say anything so they discounted it. Then a few days later a different doctor would order the same (or similar) scans and x-rays and again say it wasn't a blockage. I think he ended up in hospital for 3-4 months in the end! Doctors were clearly just waiting either for him to die or for another doctor to come along with the answer!

Eventually he got so bad, his life was at stake, so they "had to do something", so they operated on his bowel to see if it was blocked. It was! They repaired it and he went on to live a few more healthy years.

@RosesAndHellebores

I get a bit tired of the issues always being laid on the doorstep of the last 14 years. The issues have been growing since 1948 and it doesn't matter who is in Government, the current set up is no longer fit for purpose.

I agree. Both my mother and father in law died at the hands of the NHS in the noughties due to clinical mistakes and neglect. Both had cancer so should have had quick attention, treatment, operations, etc., but the "care" for both (different hospitals a few years apart) was absolutely dire. The so-called "fast track" target timescales for initial consultations, tests and operations were all missed significantly. Both people were elderly but generally fit and healthy and had no other chronic conditions nor serious ailments. Just a complete lack of urgency from the staff, frequently cancelled tests and operations, etc.

When I had our son in 2002, I nearly died during childbirth because of the "we may do it sometime tomorrow" attitude to everything really. Ended up an emergency c-section because of continual neglect and being fobbed off when I told them things were wrong. But "they know best" don't they - the lazy sods!

I’m more than grateful the NHS was there for me when I was literally bleeding to death and my liver was rapidly turning to fat. Thanks to the knowledge and skills of ITU staff I’m currently enjoying my 47th bonus year of life. My gratitude is infinite.

@havananana to be entirely fair, the NHS wasn't there for me when I was diagnosed with Graves disease in 1990 having missed it for two years. I eventually received optimal treatment because I was able to seek and pay for private care.

It wasn't there for my DC 1995/1999 when they needed grommets.

It wasn't there to diagnose my father's Acute Myeloid Leukaemia in 2001.

It wasn't there to support dd's MH in 2015.

I get a bit tired of the issues always being laid on the doorstep of the last 14 years. The issues have been growing since 1948 and it doesn't matter who is in Government, the current set up is no longer fit for purpose.

I absolutely agree that people should use homely remedies for minor illnesses, and I agree that paracetamol should not be routinely prescribed (although the cost may still be prohibitive to someone on very low income who takes paracetamol every day).

I do not agree that this figure represents the amount the NHS actually pays a supplier for a 32 pack, and I do not agree that this figure means the NHS isn’t trying hard enough to buy medicines at the lowest possible price, which is what the pp was stating.