Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be horrified by fire attack on Jewish synagogue in France by pro Palestinian terrorist

204 replies

Helpabojttown · 25/08/2024 14:02

This is awful, my thoughts are with the French and worldwide Jewish community.

French police arrest synagogue blast suspect https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y3d4v43gjo

A CCTV image purportedly showing a suspected attacker at the synagogue in La Grande-Motte

French police arrest synagogue blast suspect

The man was shot and injured by police after he opened fire on the officers in southern France, reports say.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y3d4v43gjo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
User6874356 · 28/08/2024 14:47

It’s disgusting. So much hatred and demonisation of Jewish people. So much justification of their racism and violence. Even the supposed anti racist marches are full of people screaming about how racism is a Zionist/Jewish conspiracy.

it’s a very frightening time to be a Jew

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:44

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:28

I don't think it's correct to say that "anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought." That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is their fault or that they deserve it or "brought it on themselves

This statement is contradictory

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well. What I'm saying is that some of the current anti-semitism is driven by Israel's actions in Gaza. The Israeli government (Jewish people) and some but not all Jewish citizens in Israel support Israel's actions. Many people therefore hold these particular Jews responsible for what is happening in Gaza. They then extrapolate this to blaming all Jews.

This is part of the cause of the current rise in anti-semitism. There is cause (Israel's actions) and effect (anti-semitism). I am absolutely not in any way saying this is right or moral. But it is too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has nothing to do with the actions of SOME Jews.

I absolutely condemn all anti-semitism and blaming all people of a faith/ethnicity for the views or actions of some of them is wrong. Jewish people have been treated abominably in history and currently and I agree that much of it is due to othering/scapegoating/ethnic hatred etc.

My only point is that I think it's too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of 1. the Jewish state and 2. some individual Jews within that state. I'm surprised that this seems controversial.

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:41

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:33

It's like when Islamic terrorists target the UK. You can't say that it has nothing to do with our actions. A lot of it is in response to political decisions and actions that the UK has made. And some innocent person gets stabbed in retaliation. That individual person likely had nothing to do with any political decisions made. It's the same when it's a UK soldier that gets stabbed. To the terrorist they are a representation of the UK's actions. It's wrong, of course. But to say that it is all because of othering or scapegoating is wrong. It's a retaliation for the UK's actions.

Do you think this about all types of hatred?

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:33

It's like when Islamic terrorists target the UK. You can't say that it has nothing to do with our actions. A lot of it is in response to political decisions and actions that the UK has made. And some innocent person gets stabbed in retaliation. That individual person likely had nothing to do with any political decisions made. It's the same when it's a UK soldier that gets stabbed. To the terrorist they are a representation of the UK's actions. It's wrong, of course. But to say that it is all because of othering or scapegoating is wrong. It's a retaliation for the UK's actions.

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:28

I don't think it's correct to say that "anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought." That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is their fault or that they deserve it or "brought it on themselves

This statement is contradictory

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:26

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:22

Tell me...do you think racism, islamophobia and homophobia are down to things that black people, Muslim people and gay people have done too? Or it just Jews who have brought this on themselves?

That's the opposite of what I said.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:25

Nadeed · 28/08/2024 14:19

@Bluemincat Israel and Gaza are countries. To equate Israel with "the jews" is antisemitic.

I agree. I thought that was clear from my post? Apologies if not.

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:22

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:15

I don't think it's correct to say that "anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought." That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is their fault or that they deserve it or "brought it on themselves".

I agree that a lot of racism/persecution towards ethnic or faith groups is irrational and based on othering and scapegoating. But to say that none of the current anti-semitism is in response to Israel's actions in Gaza is simply not true.

Many of the people who are currently showing anti-semitism in their comments and actions are people who consider themselves to be "on the right side of history" and campaigning against injustices in the ME and the death of innocent civilians. Many of them are doing it in response to Israel's actions. They believe that the Israeli government's actions should be blamed on Jews as a whole and are protesting that government's actions by targeting Jews.

It's completely wrong. It's prejudiced, racist, and morally wrong. But I don't agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Jewish people, meaning the Israeli government.

Much of Jewish persecution in the past eg the expulsion of Jews from England was because many Jews were money lenders and some of the rich/ruling classes were in debt and wanted to get rid of them and have their debt cancelled. Of course this was wrong as well, especially as many Jews were only money lenders because they couldn't access other professions. But the persecution was massively influenced by something "that the Jews did". It doesn't make it any less awful.

Tell me...do you think racism, islamophobia and homophobia are down to things that black people, Muslim people and gay people have done too? Or it just Jews who have brought this on themselves?

Nadeed · 28/08/2024 14:19

@Bluemincat Israel and Gaza are countries. To equate Israel with "the jews" is antisemitic.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:15

I don't think it's correct to say that "anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought." That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is their fault or that they deserve it or "brought it on themselves".

I agree that a lot of racism/persecution towards ethnic or faith groups is irrational and based on othering and scapegoating. But to say that none of the current anti-semitism is in response to Israel's actions in Gaza is simply not true.

Many of the people who are currently showing anti-semitism in their comments and actions are people who consider themselves to be "on the right side of history" and campaigning against injustices in the ME and the death of innocent civilians. Many of them are doing it in response to Israel's actions. They believe that the Israeli government's actions should be blamed on Jews as a whole and are protesting that government's actions by targeting Jews.

It's completely wrong. It's prejudiced, racist, and morally wrong. But I don't agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Jewish people, meaning the Israeli government.

Much of Jewish persecution in the past eg the expulsion of Jews from England was because many Jews were money lenders and some of the rich/ruling classes were in debt and wanted to get rid of them and have their debt cancelled. Of course this was wrong as well, especially as many Jews were only money lenders because they couldn't access other professions. But the persecution was massively influenced by something "that the Jews did". It doesn't make it any less awful.

Nadeed · 28/08/2024 13:41

@Bluemincat antisemitism is not in response to Israel. It has just become a handy excuse for existing antisemitism. This is a good explanation on reddit.

"The essential point that needs to be emphasized: the reason for anti-Jewish hatred and persecution has absolutely nothing to do with things Jewish men and women did, said or thought. Religious and racial persecution is not the fault of the victim but of the persecutor and antisemitism, like all prejudices, is inherently irrational. Framing history in a manner that places the reason for racial hatred with its victims is a technique frequently employed by racists to justify their hateful ideology.
The reasons why Jews specifically were persecuted, expelled, and discriminated against throughout mainly European history can vary greatly depending on time and place, but there are overarching historical factors that can help us understand the historical persecution of Jews - mainly that they often were the only minority available to scapegoat.
Christian majority societies as early as the Roman empire had an often strained and complicated relationship with the Jewish population that lived within their borders. Christian leaders instituted a policy that simultaneously included grudging permissions for Jews to live in certain areas and practice their faith under certain circumstances but at the same time subjected them to discriminatory measures such as restrictions where they could live and what professions they could practice. The Christian Churches – Catholic, Orthodox, and later Protestant – also begrudgingly viewed the Jews as the people of the Old Testament but used their dominant roles in society to make the Jewish population the target of intense proselytization and other them further by preaching their fault for the death of Jesus.
This dynamic meant that Jews were the most easily recognizable and visible minority to point fingers at during a crisis. This can be best observed with the frequent accusations of "blood libel" – an anti-Semitic canard alleging that Jews murdered Christian children to use their blood in religious rituals – in situations where Christian children or adults disappeared, the communal panic immediately channeling itself as Jew-hatred with tragic results. Similarly, religious, ideological, and economic reasons were often interwoven in the expulsion of Jews to whom medieval rulers and kings owed a lot of money; in fact, one intersection of crisis-blaming and financial motive occurred during the Black Death, when local rulers were able to cynically blame Jews for the plague as an excuse for murdering and expelling them.
These processes also often took place within negotiations between social and political elites over state formation. One of the best examples is the expulsion of the Jewish population from Spain by the rulers of Castile and Aragon after the Reconquista in 1491. Expulsion and forcible conversions progressed toward an institutionalized suspicion towards so-called New Christians – Jews who’d recently converted– based on their "blood". This was an unprecedented element in antisemitic attitudes that some scholars place within the context of Spanish rulers and nobility becoming engaged in a rather brutal state formation process. In order to define themselves, they chose to define and get rid of a group they painted as alien, foreign and different in a negative way – as the "other". Once again Jews were the easily available minority.
Jews long remained in this position of only available religious minority, and over time they were often made very visible as such: discriminatory measures introduced very early on included being forced to wear certain hats and clothing, be part of humiliating rituals, pay onerous taxes, live in restricted areas of towns – ghettos – and be separated from the majority population. All this further increased the sense of “other-ness” that majority societies experienced toward the Jews. They were made into the other by such measures.
This continued with the advent of modernity, especially in the context of nationalism. The 19th century is marked by a huge shift in ways to explain the world, especially in regards to factors such as nationalism, race, and science. To break it down to the essentials: the French Revolution and its aftermath delegitimized previously established explanations for why the world was the way it was – a new paradigm of “rationalism” took hold. People would now seek to explain differences in social organizations and ways of living between the various peoples of the world with this new paradigm.
Out of this endeavor to explain why people were different soon emerged what we today understand as modern racism, meaning not just theories on why people are different but constructing a dichotomy of worth out of these differences.
A shift took place from a religious othering to one based more on nationality - and thereby, in the minds of many, on race. In the tradition of völkisch thought, as formulated by thinkers such as Gobineau and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, races as the main historical actors were seen as acting through the nation. Nations were their tool or outlet to take part in Social Darwinist competition between the races. The Jews were seen as a race without a nation - as their own race, which dates back to them being imperial subjects and older stereotypes of them as "the other" - and therefore acting internationally rather than nationally. Seen through this nationalistic lens, an individual Jew living in Germany, for example, was not seen as German but was seen as having no nation. For such Jews, this meant that the Jewish emancipation that Enlightenment brought provided unprecedented freedom and removed many of the barriers that they had previously experienced, the advent of scientific racism and volkisch thought meant that new barriers and prejudices simply replaced them.
Racist thinkers of the 19th century augmented these new barriers and prejudices with conspiratorial thinking. The best example for this antisemitic delusion are the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fake political treatise produced by the Tsarist Secret Police at some point in 1904/05 which pretends to be the minutes of a meeting of the leaders of a Jewish world conspiracy discussing plans to get rid of all the world's nations and take over the world. While the Protocols were quickly debunked as a forgery, they had a huge impact on many antisemitic and völkisch thinkers in Europe, including some whose writings were most likely read by the young Hitler.
The whole trope of the Jewish conspiracy as formulated by völkisch thought took on a whole new importance in the late 1910s, with the end of WWI, the Bolshevik revolution, and subsequent attempts at communist revolution in Germany and elsewhere. Jews during the 19th century had often embraced ideologies such as (classical) liberalism and communism, because they hoped these ideologies would propagate a world in which it didn’t matter whether you were a Jew or not. However, the idea of Jews being a driving force behind communism was clearly designed by Tsarist secret police and various racists in the Russian Empire as a way to discredit communism as an ideology. This trope of Jews being the main instigators behind communism and Bolshevism subsequently spread from the remnants of Tsarist Russia over the central powers all the way to Western Europe.
This delusion of an internationalist conspiracy would finally result in the Nazis’ Holocaust killing vast numbers of Jews and those made Jews by the Nazi’s racial laws. While this form of antisemitism lost some of its mass appeal in the years after 1945, forms of it still live on, mostly in the charge of conspiracy so central to the modern form of antisemitism: from instances such as the Moscow doctors’ trial, to prevalent discourses about Jews belonging to no nation, to discourses related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to the recent surges of antisemitic violence in various states – antisemitism didn’t disappear after the end of the Holocaust. Even the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the conspiratorial pamphlet debunked soon after it was written at the beginning of the 20th century, has been consistently in print throughout the world ever since.
Again, anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought. It was and is caused by the hatred, delusions, and irrational prejudices harbored by those who carried out said persecution. After centuries of standing out due to religious and alleged racial difference, without defenders and prevented from defending themselves, Jews stood out as almost an ideal “other.” Whether the immediate cause at various points has been religious difference, conspiracy theory, ancestral memory of hatred, or simply obvious difference, Jews were and continue to be targeted by those who adhere to ideologies of hatred.
Further reading:
Amos Elon: The Pity of It All: A History of the Jews in Germany, 1743-1933. New York 2002.
Peter Pulzer: The rise of political anti-Semitism in Germany and Austria, Cambridge 1988.
Hadassa Ben-Itto: The Lie That Wouldn't Die: The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. London 2005.
Robert S. Wistrich: Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred. New York 1991.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12ltsdc/why_is_antisemitism_so_prevalent/

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 13:26

I suspect the reasons for anti-semitisim are not the same in different places or at different times. In the West currently I would have thought most of it is in response to Israel's actions in Gaza. But that is a bit simplistic as history shows plenty of anti-semitism in the West before 1947. I guess we need to be careful of making simplistic statements about people's reasons behind anti-semitism because there are various different routes, including faith, ethnicity, politics and government actions.

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:21

I was trying to see a link between the countries who are persecuting Jews and Christian’s and how it trickles out to the west with extremism.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 13:19

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:13

So it’s Islamist groups wanting to eradicate Jews and Christian’s in those regions and general anti-semites who want to eradicate Jews in the west.

In very simple terms yes. But also atheist communist governments like North Korea and China persecute Christians.

A lot of anti-semitism is also Islamic in origin. Not all, before I get shouted down, but a significant amount.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 13:17

Helpabojttown · 28/08/2024 13:11

Sorry what is the relevant of this on this thread?

it’s awful that some Christians are persecuted, but this thread is about the anti-semitism which has skyrocketed since October 7th.

Because a poster earlier essentially said how awful it was that synagogues get attacked and need security and that churches don't. I said that no one should be attacked or persecuted for their faith and that there are many Christians around the world who are persecuted and whose churches either need security or operate "underground" to avoid being attacked. Some people seem surprised that Christians are being persecuted because it rarely makes the news. Needless to say, it doesn't make Jewish persecution any less awful. But it was in response to someone seeming to suggest that there is no Christian persecution.

SensibleSigma · 28/08/2024 13:15

Helpabojttown · 28/08/2024 13:11

Sorry what is the relevant of this on this thread?

it’s awful that some Christians are persecuted, but this thread is about the anti-semitism which has skyrocketed since October 7th.

I was answering Jane Doe, but you’re right it’s not relevant.

Jews in France and the UK are supposed to have freedom of belief.

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:13

So it’s Islamist groups wanting to eradicate Jews and Christian’s in those regions and general anti-semites who want to eradicate Jews in the west.

Helpabojttown · 28/08/2024 13:11

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 13:09

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2024-0017/

The report for 2023 said that:

• Around 365 million Christians are subject to “high levels of
persecution and discrimination”. This compared to 340 million in 2021
(PDF).

• 1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide, including 1 in 5 in Africa
and 1 in 7 in Asia. This compared to 1 in 8 worldwide in 2021 (PDF).

• 4,998 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. 90% of those
killed were in Nigeria, where attacks on Christians have become more
common since 2020 as part of a wider rise in political violence
against civilians. Open Doors estimates the number of Christians
killed for faith-related reasons worldwide was 5,621 in 2023, 5,898 in
2022, and 4,761 in 2021.

• 14,766 Churches and Christian properties were attacked.

• North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest
rates of reported persecution against Christians.

Sorry what is the relevant of this on this thread?

it’s awful that some Christians are persecuted, but this thread is about the anti-semitism which has skyrocketed since October 7th.

OP posts:
Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 13:09

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2024-0017/

The report for 2023 said that:

• Around 365 million Christians are subject to “high levels of
persecution and discrimination”. This compared to 340 million in 2021
(PDF).

• 1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide, including 1 in 5 in Africa
and 1 in 7 in Asia. This compared to 1 in 8 worldwide in 2021 (PDF).

• 4,998 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. 90% of those
killed were in Nigeria, where attacks on Christians have become more
common since 2020 as part of a wider rise in political violence
against civilians. Open Doors estimates the number of Christians
killed for faith-related reasons worldwide was 5,621 in 2023, 5,898 in
2022, and 4,761 in 2021.

• 14,766 Churches and Christian properties were attacked.

• North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest
rates of reported persecution against Christians.

SensibleSigma · 28/08/2024 13:07

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:03

I’m guessing places such as Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

  • North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest rates of reported persecution against Christians.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2024-0017/

Lots of info here.

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:03

I’m guessing places such as Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

JaneDoeHere · 28/08/2024 13:00

Bluemincat · 25/08/2024 21:03

Plenty of churches around the world need security. And plenty of churches are held "underground" as if they were found out they would all be killed.

That’s also very awful for those church goers. What countries do churches services have to be hidden?

pigletinthewoods · 28/08/2024 12:42

@alittleprivacy

That's bullshit at the top there. Arafat did not reject a two state solution.

Didn't he?:

Arafat said no. Enraged, Clinton banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

Twenty-one years ago, on 11 July, the Camp David 2000 Summit convened. While hopes were initially high for a landmark breakthrough between Israelis and Palestinians, the talks ended in failure. Months later, the Second Palestinian Intifada erupted, leading to some of the most blood-filled years in living memory. Whichever way one looks at it, the course of history was undoubtedly changed by Arafat’s rejectionism.

https://honestreporting.com/in-depth-arafat-rejected-peace-in-2000/

However, during the 1990s and 2000s the PLO leadership has stated that it considered any peace with Israel was to be temporary until the dream of Israel's destruction could be realized (…)

In 2000, after Yasser Arafat rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan(…)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinianviewsonthepeaceprocess (sources referenced in link)

I could go on, it’s actually a pretty well documented historical fact.

blackcherryconserve · 28/08/2024 12:10

Kendodd · 27/08/2024 19:34

One awful thing about this whole conflict, wider antisemitism and all the threads it has given birth to is the way people are constantly pushed to pick a side. If you support Palestinian people and their ambition for statehood, you must hate Jews and want the destruction of Israel. If you support the right of Israel to exist and Jewish people generally, you must hate Palestinians and support the bombing of Gaza.
It's exhausting.

If you find it exhausting (I take it you're not Jewish - apologies if you are) imagine how exhausting it is for Jewish people at large who support the existence of the State of Israel but don't necessarily support Netanyahou.

alittleprivacy · 28/08/2024 01:11

pigletinthewoods · 27/08/2024 20:34

You seem to forget that it was the Palestinian leaders who have repeatedly rejected offers of a two state solution made by Israel. Including Arafat.

Last time Palestinians had general elections was in 2006. Hamas critics in Gaza are killed, civilians are deliberately used as human shields and bodies photographed for propaganda purposes. So how do you actually know what Palestinians want? Because, afaik, we’ve only had leaders of very questionable organisations speak on their behalf and according to them, the aim is the destruction of Israel and genocide of Jews, not bettering the lives of their own people, whom they don’t seem to care very much about. But somehow they are romanticised as ‘freedom fighters’ instead of being held to account for sacrificing their own people for an ideology, not to mention mass murder and rape.

And Israel is to blame for this?

Edited

That's bullshit at the top there. Arafat did not reject a two state solution. He was moving towards it when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, an assassination that was arguably the result of Netanyahu's very deliberate rabble rousing. Rabin's death, followed by Likud's return to power was the nail in the coffin of the Oslo Accords. And if we were to simplify the blame for that to any one person, it's Netanyahu. There will never be a two state solution if Netanyahu has any ability to stop it. And it was also Netanyahu who financed and supported Hamas in order to undermine Fatah.

Hamas are evil and there will never be peace as long as they hold any power. But let's not kid ourselves that Israeli leadership has only ever wanted peace. Rabin wanted peace and died for it. Netanyahu is no Rabin and his removal, and the removal of people like him, from power are just as necessary for any two state solution and lasting peace.