Has the left now met the right, shaken hands with it then stuck 2 fingers up at the general population?

Which is why we have ended up where we are. We have a massive case of "I'm all right Jack" going on and have done for years. Women over on FWR have been sounding the alarm and being silenced by other women. On a site set up mainly for mothers.

OK let me change that for you. We should all have the freedom to be in a space where only our own sex can access. Either entirely or on a timed basis.

You are confused about the point of the thread, it's about misogyny on both ends of the political spectrum not commentary on what all men believe.

The problem with most men being disinterested in this stuff (and I agree with that point) is that they are not challenging men who DO want to control and abuse women.

Women cannot fight these battles entirely on their own. We all need to stand up for the type of society we want to foster.

I think there are various things going on. The trans/GC debate doesn't fit neatly of itself on a left right spectrum because it's identity politics v scientific reality. People on the far right were quicker to grab the GC cause though, out of an aversion to identity politics. But they have no interest in feminism or Women's Rights, it's about bashing "liberals" and using the trans delusion as lightening rod to say all liberal opinion is based on such nonsense. Or at worst, it's about protecting a sexist concept of women as mothers in a family led by a father.

On the left, starting with centre left liberals, movement towards a rejection of gender based ideology has been much slower (but is happening) because of "be kind" ideas, and a reluctance to repeat the historic mistakes of poor treatment of those in same sex relationships. This created a feeling that it was wrong to point out that as it goes, trans ideology is a case of the emperor wearing no clothes and everyone else feeling pressured to indulge the delusion for fear of ostracism for causing offence. However, the winds are changing in the UK, and the law is not following the same path here as it has in Australia. But there is a long way to go.

You are confusing extremists with all men. Men outside of Islam have no interest in covering up women and hardly any want to access women's spaces. Men are disinterested in this stuff. As are most women outside the feminist trenches of MN.

Yes. It is the authoritarian and totalitarian nature of the extremes that is a major contributor to the issue here.

But it is not just the extremes now it has been adopted more broadly.

You see it with those who censure and berate others who refuse to use preferred pronouns, ‘cis’ and reject the harmful to women language they wish to impose. These are not extreme people, they are people who seem to believe that they are righteous though.

What has come about over the past few years but really reached a peak with the discussions with the two male boxers, is that the reasons that were used to pressure society to use these language changes are empty, bereft of anything but emotionally manipulative reasoning to get other people to support that person’s belief.

In fact, all it ever was was one group demanding that everyone in society support, as a collective, an individual’s personal choices.

When those personal choices caused others direct harm.

But what they had done, by using previous groups fights for equal opportunity where that group had been illegitimately discriminated against, was to make some people
who couldn’t see the difference think that their demands were righteous. When the truth is that the group demanded additional rights that negatively impacted those of other groups. What that group did was forced teaming and using another group’s rightful and legitimately recognised issues to leverage their own demands. Which should not have been legitimised where it negative impacts other groups rights.

You are being disingenuous.

You can't say "the women did it so they can't complain when the men want to do it" and ignore that the reasons the women did it are totally different to the reasons the men want to do it.

Women wanted certain men-only jobs, spaces and practices to be open to them within the social context of men having greater social, economic and political power and using these spaces to network and influence power in ways that women were excluded from.

Men who want access to women-only resources aren't motivated by being excluded from powerful networks, they just want to see naked women or indulge a fantasy that they are women.

The root cause is not "the women did it", the root cause was the society stacked against women by men that made it necessary to prevent men excluding women is now enabling men to harass women.

Exactly. Then a "senior book seller" at Waterstones announced they were going to tear up all her books. Women have been and are being silenced everywhere. It is just the methods of doing it that differ.

Vox was quite a terrifying read, it's supposed to be a dystopian novel but I read it not long after it was released and at the time women were being banned from Twitter and arrested for acknowledging the material reality of biological sex so it didn't feel dystopian.

I hadn’t seen that one. It is very apt.

Excellent novel. It's basically about a society where women and girls are not allowed to speak more than 100 words a day and get severely punished if they do. These 2 above mentioned ideologies are all about silencing women. It's horrific how much women's rights seem to have gone backwards in recent years, all across the world.

You might have a point if an ordinary guy found that the only local golf course was women only and claimed it was unfair and quoted equal rights activists

But I'm not convinced that men now demanding access to women's toilets, changing rooms and lesbian only spaces are related to that at all.

Remember if there was only one golf course you'd be losing out by being blocked from it.

But there are always men and women's toilets, changing rooms, sports and so on. We're not talking about taking anything away from men.

I recommend listening to "Antisocial, Extreme Mysogeny" on BBC Sounds radio 4, broadcast yesterday. It was interesting, unfortunately I didn't hear all of it as I was in and out but I got the impression there was a lot of "what about men?", almost excuses

Right wing misogyny = women are the private property of one man they are supposed to serve.

Left wing misogyny = women are public property who must always sacrifice full personhood for the greater good.

No idea who the quote is from, but …

Far right and far left = two cheeks of the same arse

It’s shit isn’t it, you shouldn’t feel that way, no woman should feel that way.

Horseshoe theory in action
The only disagreement between the extreme left/liberal men and the extreme conservative/religious men is where to place the boot. Both sides are authoritatian and agree that women are a lesser species that men have the right to control and use as resources.

Read Vox by Christina Dalcher. Then read about what is happening to Christina Dalcher.
The Handmaid's Tale, (Margaret Attwood) written in the 80s was based on Afghanistan.

And both entirely predictable.

Personally as someone who covers (not on par with Afghan woman) just for me.

I feel safer that way from all these shitty men and protected.

I know I shouldn't have to feel safe from half the worlds population but it is what it is.
This is where we are in the world right now.
I'm not saying we should all Don cloaks far from it but short of killing all the men what can I do?

People are now starting to understand why I won't get changed now in public spaces where any gender is welcome sadly.

Theres a guy called ali dawah who did a joint youtube video with his wife. His wife was wearing the niqab and she wrote down her answers on a whiteboard so no-one would hear her voice. This is not confined to afghanistan.

Legislation in the case of TRAs

We legislated fiction and every year it builds against women

I think it’s the weaponisation of victim narratives. Incels claim they are the victims of women, TRA’s claim they are victims of women (ha ha ha) religious conservatives claim they are victims of racism or in the case of harrassing women outside abortion clinics “thought policing”. All of them have borrowed the mantle of victimhood whilst happily victimising mainly women. People don’t tend to have as much sympathy for incels as they are seen as sadsacks.

The rest take a grain of truth and our politicians and media fall over themselves to make sure they are on the right side of history. After all you are protecting a minority aren’t you.

Even in the case of afghanistan, many people (including me) felt uncomfortable with what felt like the continuing occupation of a country. Leaving felt like the right thing to do. It felt colonialist didn’t it. I didn’t realise they would sink to such barbarity, more fool me.

Colin Wright's 2024 update seems to fit your thread title OP