Has the left now met the right, shaken hands with it then stuck 2 fingers up at the general population?

I'd say that's the way to go - doesn't impinge on women's rights whilst recognising trans rights. After all why should the rights be opposed? I don't want transmen and trans women to feel uncomfortable or at threat but I don't think this is on women who have fought hard for safe spaces. But this is only something that can come from the left. The right want trans not to exist not provide a separate safe space.

You join the rest of us who have been suggesting it for years and being rejected and abused for the suggestion. But we persist.

"Intersex is very much a condition. It is when a child is born with a mixture of male/female sex organs or mixed up chromosomes".

It really isn't. There are some good explanations written by biologists/geneticists over on FWR that are worth reading. In the wake of the Olympics boxing situation there has been a lot of discussion about DSDs along with some helpful myth busting.

What about those of us smack bang in the middle on the trans debate. Where we say there needs to be a third way, perhaps another changing room for those identifying as trans?

I'll go with the NHS definition of it for now thank sweetie.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

@Bodeganights Firstly there was never anything stopping someone from creating a women only golf course. The reality will be it was never financially viable, due to lack of customers.

''I am also perfectly fine with men having the same single sex spaces I have.
So for every men only golf club, there should be a woman only golf club. Etc''
If you wanted to look at it from a numbers point of view. You eg have 100 men wanting to join a golf club compared to 10 women. So for every 10 courses you build, you would need 1 womens course. As these clubs are private enterprises, the onus on creating them lies with those that will use them. How many women stood up and said lets create a golf course?

The right and left do not meet in the middle. Their interests remain diametrically opposed.

The right have historically disadvantaged certain groups economically - women, non white - denying the vote, underpaying etc They have seeded sexism and racism to supposedly explain low wages and unemployment of white men whilst making profit.

The left has historically fought white male underpayment and unemployment whilst fighting to increase the rights of women and non whites to equal rights.

But now by smoke and mirrors the economic is irrelevant and it's all about the social - like they're not linked. It's all about masculinity and femininity. If you don't like biological men in women's spaces you are right wing. I don't like biological men in women's spaces but I am left wing. I don't believe that the drive to push women back comes from the left. I think they are being too nice and don't see the misogyny that drives this. Sometimes wanting to see the good in people means you are played by the self serving. Because they play by different rules - mainly the profit motive - and are unmoved by the social disorder they foster to meet their own need.

Such as private men’s clubs and golf clubs?

Well which is it?
Sex or gender. We obviously cannot have both.

I want single sex spaces, the ones we had until recently.
You can't time the spaces I require to be single sex.

I never want single gender spaces, aside from the cost of 859 (and increasing) seperate spaces and where to put these spaces, gender is in someone's head, unqualified, indefinable.

I am also perfectly fine with men having the same single sex spaces I have.
So for every men only golf club, there should be a woman only golf club. Etc

@ATenShun sweetie, you need to read up on ‘Intersex’. The women here know vastly more about it than you- forced learning sadly.

Intersex is a disputed term mainly replaced by DSD or VSD which as a PP has said is always associated with one sex or the other.

I know a man with a DSD, and arguably some would say one of my DS’s has a DSD.

Neither were intersex.

I don't blame it on the reasonable fair minded women that did just as you say. I do believe those that then started demanding access to reasonable male only places, did open the door to spurious claims of equality for all including trans.

Where? Can you do it when you come back?

Stop laying the blame for male people accessing female spaces in anyway on the women who fought to achieve equity of opportunity where female people have been negatively discriminated against for millennia based on our sex category. That would be a start.

What would you have us do then?

So my (and a vast majority of men) supporting what you say about trans not entering female only places is somehow wrong?

Questioning the motives behind men wanting to become women or vice versa is not in any way unreasonable. To shut down any discussion does nobody any favours.

@endofthelinefinally Intersex is very much a condition. It is when a child is born with a mixture of male/female sex organs or mixed up chromosomes.

Either way, the vast majority of the population, male or female, don't want it happening. In what way is that not supportive?

But it IS happening. To the detriment of women not men. So 'being supportive' is fuck all use. Sorry.

“The number of extremely succesful Women in business now, contradicts the fallacy that the old school private club membership is a requirement.”

FFS.

And for how many decades has the concerted effort taken for women to get into those positions in business? When do you think the tide began to turn? Do you even understand that it took women demanding access to those old private clubs you seem so keen to protect to even get the inequity noticed? To get even a small proportion of the groups that used to be men only to open so women could have the same opportunities to network and discuss business so women could start to build these companies.

@ATenShun

What do you mean by intersex? There isn't such a condition. There are however disorders or sexual development (sometimes called differences of sexual development) that are always sex specific, so only affect males or females.

It doesn’t matter what a ‘vast majority’ want. What matters is that a minority are successful in gaining access to spaces where safeguarding risk assessment means they should not there.

You can tell us all about why you think males with the belief that they are women want to be in female spaces. It doesn’t matter, why. A man with any medical condition, including mental health conditions, should not be allowed to access female spaces for any reason, not even because they feel that that is where they belong.

Female people are not therapeutic resources for male people’s needs.

“The reason these people are like that imo is more than sexual curiosity”

And don’t fucking try to sell us that one either.

Firstly, it is incredibly and misogynistically dismissive to describe it as ‘sexual curiosity’. What the actual fuck.

And secondly, even if it is just ONE male doing it for their sexual gratification, that is too many. Also which one is it, how do we tell?

Thirdly, it isn’t up to any
man to tell women who they should accept into our spaces.

Fourthly, well done on dismissing female people’s concerns considering just how many of us have experienced violence and abuse from male people.

Women use women only spaces for safety and modesty (which is really still safety). For the opportunity to discuss things as they experience them without being talked over by men telling them what to think.

Research apparently shows that women are more likely to take part in public meetings where the chair is a woman.
In mixed sex meetings, men talk disproportionately more than women.
I’ve experienced this recently in my own meeting, arranged by me, where I had to stand between a self invited man and the man I had arranged to meet with in order to get a word in.
These are reasons women meet without men.

Men exclude women for entirely different reasons.

The number of extremely succesful Women in business now, contradicts the fallacy that the old school private club membership is a requirement.

Trans in Womens changing areas, several times I have said I disagree with it happening. The reason these people are like that imo is more than sexual curiosity. I believe it to be a major mental health issue. Either way, the vast majority of the population, male or female, don't want it happening. In what way is that not supportive?

Because you are arguing about ‘fairness’ with regards to private mens clubs and men’s golf sessions as if they are just places where therapeutic socialisation happens and not the continuation of blocking female people out of economic opportunities. Well, except the wonderful economic opportunity to perform for men’s entertainment in men’s clubs.

You have not used men’s therapy groups or support groups as examples.

Your arguments are those of a classic men’s rights activist.

Same. It's really depressing how things have regressed.

Agree it doesn't make sense

“The majority of men entirely accept women being in most places. Likewise accept men not being allowed in others. But you must accept the same thing needs to happen in reverse. When you have a noisy minority demanding female access to mens clubs as an example, you open the door to the noisy minority of trans or just bloody minded contrary individuals.”

And again. You don’t understand the demand for equity of opportunity for economic growth and have mistaken it for ‘equality’.

And it is blindingly clear you don’t understand about safeguarding either. Nor do you acknowledge the motivation of the male people with trans identities in that scenario.

The points you are trying to compare are not symmetrical no matter how hard you try to make them fit.

I believe I am looking at it from a balanced point of view. Not from a polarised view.

Do most men and women quite happily go about their day where both sexes can go to most places? Yes!
Do most men and women accept and have no issue with single sex places? Yes!

Where in any of that is a suggestion of being anything other than fair to both sexes?