To not understand the obsession with driving / red flag if partner doesn’t drive?

It wouldn't be impossible. Inconvenient, yes, but not impossible. If you found yourself unable to drive (medical/conviction/breakdown/whatever) you wouldn't starve, you'd make it work.

Sure travel options on Christmas day are limited, and availability needs to be looked at for work. Nobody has claimed a 5 minute bus service to every front door in the country that teleports passengers at the speed of light. What we are answering is how someone can possibly get anywhere outside London without a car if they go on holiday, because it was being claimed that a car was needed "to get to places that are not well served by public transport". Many of us do exactly that, it's absolutely fine. If you just prefer to be in your car, that's super (apart from the pollution and contributing to ruining otherwise lovely places by a constant stream of traffic).

If one makes a choice not to drive one navigates a path that doesn’t include self driven car journeys.

I should say, where we live the city and county council are very anti car. As a bodies, they go further than I would to try and stop as many vehicles as poss coming into the city. We don’t yet have a congestion charge or a cap on the number of vehicles per household. Despite being a non/former driver, I speak against most of their policies because - although public transport and disability parking are goodish - they and general infrastructure need to be improved before they shut all the roads and make everything 20 miles an hour

Ah, at last someone names places.

How long does it take to make these journeys? How confident can you be that your train won't be replaced by a bus, or cancelled? How many connections have to go right for these journeys to work? What is the earliest and latest in the day you can make these journeys? What if you want to travel on Christmas Day, or when there's work on the line?

At times, it makes more sense to use public transport. At other times, it doesn't.

People who can drive can always choose to use public transport. People who can't don't have the choice and the flexibility to travel door-to-door whenever they like.

I didn’t get the same in the US. No one was bothered that I didn’t drive. Most just shrugged and moved on. Those that did ask, I pointed out the cost and upkeep and where I lived and my cost to get where I need to be taking the bus and they understood.

I received more questions about not drinking alcohol than I did about not driving.

I absolutely know there are places you need a car to live in. That's why, as a non-driver, I don't live in them. The fact that some people who don't drive do, and cadge lifts, isn't under dispute. What is, for me, as a non-driver who doesn't have lifts, lives in a small town in the north which has good transport, is the notion that everywhere outside London is a rural backwater and every single non-driver is some weak, pathetic individual who.sits on their arse crying about lifts. There's far more of that on this post than a refusal to recognise poor public transport.

Yes!

I’ve said upthread I don’t live in London and live in the outskirts of a commuter town. Before that I lived in another commuter town not to far away. Both had two train stations and bus stations. DH, a driver, chose to live in the first town because he didn’t want to rely on his car and it meant when meeting up with mates and going out with clients, he could enjoy a pint and not worry about staying over a friend’s place or booking a hotel. I moved in after we married. We both enjoy this set-up especially since it saved on having the extra expense of a second car and me trying to relearn to drive with no one to watch our children. We moved where we are now because it was similar to where we were and the houses were cheaper and offered much more space. If I drove, it would still mean having to buy a second car which we can’t afford or I would have to drop DH off at work to have the car because there isn’t a bus that gets him to work when he needs to be there before 5:30 am and rounding up three children (one SEN and the other a baby) that early to do so would be silly.

My MIL doesn’t drive and wasn’t before she had DH and his siblings. She lives in a village that she has for her whole life in NE England. She walks and takes the bus and there’s a train station within walking distance. She has family and friends nearby and walks to them. She and FIL go on holiday outside the UK several times a year, and they book a taxi to take them to the airport. She is in her late 70s’.

Yes, I would have been in that situation had my family remained in the village I grew up in. I fully acknowledge I would have had to drive or move and given the struggles I had trying to learn to drive, it would have been cheaper to bloody move. We left when I was 16, though, so it didn't arise for me, but my sister was older and, fortunately, didn't share my odd inability to master it. She loved driving and learned quickly. It might even have helped that she learned on quiet country roads. Her boyfriend taught her, she only had a few 'official' lessons.

One of the reasons I would like to have driven is I love rural living. Doesn't matter now, I love our house on a nice street in a small town and we won't move again.

I didn’t drive until fairly recently so my DH did all the driving. He was never resentful. It’s not a red flag and it’s weird that people think it is. There are too many people on the road who shouldn’t be driving. It’s not a bad thing

I'd also like to think as a non driver, that it does and will teach my children that life is still possible, you can still achieve, parent, amongst other things and, that you aren't some walking red flag, lazy bum and whatever else some people would like to call non drivers. Maybe that's just me 🤪

Moving into a nearby town that has a school, bus/train and selecting jobs with transport is not "uprooting your life", it is making minor sensible adjustments. Campaign for more buses from your sensible base. No need for dramatising.

Totally dependent on where you live.
Driving gives you independence to go where you want when you want and not rely on anyone else. Someone who doesn’t want to learn to drive to me is restricting themselves so I’d find it unattractive.

Living there all year round might be different, but in summer there are plenty of places on bus routes that make good bases.

This is a really good point - I'd also say that many locals can't afford to live in the tourist "hotspots" so have no choice but to buy further afield and commute in to work.

I'd also say that if you're getting a train to somewhere rural on holiday then in generally doesn't matter if you miss your connection or there's a delay, whereas if you're relying on it to get you to work then it's a very different story.

We regularly holiday in Cornwall. Trains are pretty good for getting there and back. Taxis form part of the plans for some trips, we organise this in advance and factor in charges to the budget.

Living there all year round might be different, but in summer there are plenty of places on bus routes that make good bases. If we are going to the beach we will have body boards in board back pack and a beach shelter/tent in a roll bag. Yes, we do take that on the train and buses and taxis as required

Now, those who are determined to live 8 miles from a village, 24 miles from the nearest school and work 3 towns in the opposite direction - yes, they will certainly struggle if they don't drive in some of these counties. Those are all clear choices some individuals deliberately made though, in full knowledge of their options for getting around, and certainly it isn't a large proportion of people who make their own lives difficult.

Why are you choosing to ignore the fact that some people are born in places like that and can't afford to live anywhere else?

I chose to move here and did so knowing I'd need a car, but all of DH's family were born here and used to cope just fine because we used to have an excellent public transport system.

Unfortunately some of the lines closed, the buses stopped and many people who have lived here for generations are now in a situation where the choice is "learn to drive" or "uproot your entire life"

Ah, at last someone names places.

New Forest - train to Southampton, Brockenhurst, or Lymington. Then use buses such as #6 Lymington to Southampton or the X7 to Paultons Park. For handling areas with fewer buses, taxi from Lymington to Beaulieu is £14. It's a holiday, so take the ferry to Hythe. We've holidayed happily car free.

Devon - Train to Exeter, Plymouth, Barnstaple etc. Buses like 21A and 310 would get you around sights near Barnstaple. Exeter train to Dawlish etc. We've holidayed happily car free.

Cornwall - haven't been for years but have been years ago car free stopping along the train line, bus to Eden project etc.

Cotswolds has trains throughout; needs a bit of planning to work out the best bus or train service sometimes, but everywhere was covered easily by looking up routes each evening for the next day, and two short taxi rides when we wanted to connect more quickly. The steam train from Gloucester was a nice way to get around while enjoying the journey.

Dorset you again pick a side based on train connections and travel round a hub; Bournemouth or Yeovil or Weymouth. We haven't been post child nor post covid, but it was fine for us both car free before.

Now, those who are determined to live 8 miles from a village, 24 miles from the nearest school and work 3 towns in the opposite direction - yes, they will certainly struggle if they don't drive in some of these counties. Those are all clear choices some individuals deliberately made though, in full knowledge of their options for getting around, and certainly it isn't a large proportion of people who make their own lives difficult.

Oh, I totally agree with you. And perhaps I am just very conscious about not doing that because of being embarrassed about not being able to drive, but the flip side is the times I have spent trying to stop drunk friends driving when we offered to share a taxi, and the memorable occasion when a friend who was out with us in our home town was falling down drunk and still trying to get in her car to drive when we lived within easy walking distance of home.
I don't do big nights out now, but when we did, we always made our own arrangements to get home, not least because there was still a lot of drinking and driving going on then. I don't rely on other people after a night out because I don't entirely trust that they haven't had a drink. I have taken people's keys and paid for a taxi for them in the.past. I don't think that happens as much now, thank goodness, but drunk behind the wheel is something I find loathsome and it's surprising how much, back in the 90s, people still did it. And how many people thought being slightly over the limit was fine. This was all in an area with plenty of taxis available, or even, in some instances, they could have walked home.

Where we live is about 40 mins walk from my workplace - I can do it in 37 if weather not too hot, 45 if I stroll. I can get a bus that takes me directly to my workplace if I walk for 15 mins first or a bus that stops 15 mins from my work place from the bus stop 2 mins walk away. A taxi is doable but gets stuck in traffic. If I wanted to drive to work, I would not be entitled to a parking permit for the staff car park. There is a car park for our ‘customers’, if I wanted to use this instead to park I would have to ask for a different start time. I’m honestly flabbergasted by how many people do ask for a different start time for that reason. Obviously, they don’t all get it because someone has to be there to open building and car parks and provide services. The people who feel they have to drive are so often single people with no dependents who live nearer than I do that it genuinely puzzles me.

Try it in the US (I drive now but I didn't when I was there) - they look at you like you said for fun you torture puppies. Or just try it outside of London! It's a lot more common and socially acceptable there than anywhere else in the UK.

Yeah, a lot of people do see it as some sort of rite-of-passage marker of adulthood kind of thing. And some people are just kind of dicks who like to make out that someone who's a bit different from them in any way at all is obviously a freak - people who don't drink / are vegetarians / don't have kids / don't have smartphones / whatever. And cars are some weird symbol of masculinity for a lot of men.

I suppose another POSSIBLE reason, in some cases, is that for people who live in places where a car often really is the only way to get anywhere, we're sometimes annoyed by the people who don't drive but are forever begging lifts. Especially if they act very superior about how green they are in one breath, and beg yet another lift with the next.

Because a lot of us don’t live in London so don’t have access to good public transport?

If I wanted to get the bus to take my kids to school and then go to work it would take me nearly two hours. It takes me 40 minutes in the car. A lot of people can’t get on without a car and when only one of you drives that can be a significant contribution to running family life that isn’t there.

this is either deliberately goady or smugly naively London-centric

In fairness @ObelixtheGaul I do think it's very different when neither party drives, as the "burden" of driving everywhere isn't pushed onto one party.

It also took me a long time to pass my test and I certainly don't think non-drivers are stupid, but I just remember how much my life changed when I passed my test and I know I would never voluntarily go back to having to rely on public transport to get me places.

I've also never said that everyone outside London who doesn't drive is a bum who cadges lifts, just that in my particular area, most non drivers don't have a choice but to do just that, otherwise they'd be stuck.

At the end of the day, we're all speaking from our own experience. If for some reason I had to give up my license I wouldn't stay here - my life would close up to a tiny bubble and I'd be utterly miserable. I wouldn't be able to do the most basic tasks like visit a dentist or see my parents.

If some people can genuinely live their lives without needing to drive and don't rely on other people to ferry them around then good for them, but for many it's just not possible and I do think non-drivers (who are with a driver) don't realise how much they rely on a car, even if they're not the one driving it.

I don't necessarily think nervous = bad. Someone else said this & I was responding directly to that.

Because MN can be a cesspit of judgement and should not be taken seriously by anyone with an ounce of compassion.

At other times it can be an unmatched source of support and information.

Bit like life overall really.

OK, I haven't followed the conversation. I am a nervous driver so I don't drive where I don't know, but I still drive (to and from work as I'm happy driving this and not dangerous!).

@ObelixtheGaul

I totally get what you are saying and it's fine for people not to drive if they dont want to. I dont think it's automatically "lazy" or anything like that, it's just a life choice like any other. But I do think if you make a choice not to drive then it is your responsibility to sort out public transport for yourself and not to just expect the drivers to take you.

I think those of us who drive just get utterly sick of people assuming we're their default taxi driver and its just assumed that we will drive everyone home on a night out, even if its in the opposite direction or people that we give regular lifts to never ever even offer to pay for petrol. Its not even that I want their money, its the fact its never even bloody offered that pisses me off. Its just rude.

I was specifically replying to the person who said nervous drivers are bad drivers.