You can’t relativise sadness … but surely you can?

You explained yourself perfectly.
I think acknowledgement says "I hear you. I see that this situation has aroused very strong feelings for you". Whereas for me, validating goes that bit further and says "Your emotional response is valid in this situation. You are right to have reacted in this way". The first shows empathy with the emotion. The second affirms it and that may not always be appropriate.

I also think it's important to recognise that it's not just "sadness" that people experience in the wake of tragic life events. Just reading the stories here brings a lump to my throat and that people have survived so much is a testament to their resilience, but often it comes at a cost.

Somebody upthread mentioned cumulative grief, which can lead to people appearing OTT about relatively minor things - but the reason that happens is because the resonance of a situation, even if not your own, can evoke a visceral response as it brings up memories and feelings normally under control. It's hard work reminding yourself that "it's not all about you" when your physical body is going a bit haywire, and sometimes the only solution is to remove yourself so you don't get blindsided by a sodding panic attack in front of people who are going to think you're attention seeking when actually it's the last thing you want.

On top of sadness from a bereavement can come anxiety, terror, depression and loss of trust in everything. You can remind yourself that you're lucky to have XYand Z people still around, but then the thought of what if something happens to them can be pretty overwhelming. Of course you have to try and rationalise the improbability of that, but if you have had several left field and unexpected losses, or even expected ones, especially in a short space if time, you have to work bloody hard at stamping on that fear.

So you try to cultivate the mindset of making the most of every day, counting one's blessings and not dwelling on the "what ifs" and accepting that there are things you cannot control. But. It's a challenge. And it can make you feel as if you're living a somewhat fake existence for a long time.

Perhaps it would be better to frame the argument about "validating" feelings more in the terms of "acknowledging" them, or "awareness", which is a subtle difference. Because sometimes people just need that, because they know full well that feelings change all the time, so it's not helpful to be "locked" into them due to the current concept of "valudation"

Not sure I'm explaining myself very well but I know what I'm getting at.

I think it's also important to remember that for many things the "my emotions are everything" stage is short and the putting things into perspective can come a lot later. I don't think it helps for a third party to try and clumsily rush this.

Because pain and sadness like all emotions are subjective. Our own emotions will usually impact on us more than others, unless we’re extreme empaths.
Some people feel things much more intensely.
some people aren’t able to recognise their emotions.
it’s never as straight forward as whether a situation is objectively worse or not.

I think to some extent we are heading that way. There is a definite trend to put emotions rather than situations/behaviour front and centre when assessing harm, culpability for harm caused, allowances to be made and so on. Its a dangerous path to walk where the end point would be a world twisted to meet the needs of individuals, whatever the cost to others, because feelings trump all.

I think this sums it up quite well for me.

I think we are heading in the wrong direction when I hear someone say that who are we to compare the pain of an 18 year old's suicide with an early miscarriage.
I'm not saying we should necessarily make comparisons at the time, to the people involved, because that may or may not be helpful depending on the person, but it's a worrying trend if we (society) cannot realistically see the difference between them?

Are we becoming a society where feelings are unquestionable and that to question them is considered "unkind"?

I agree @comoatoupeira

The last couple of years have been tough - 2023 was an absolute shitter. I left my abusive husband in late 2022, he became even more psycho in the aftermath (if possible), my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer and I had to put my beloved 14 year old dog down in July. All sad, but in the BAU category of sadness iysm. All I could think of was “this is stressful, but at least the kids are healthy and ok” - it made me realise that I would walk over broken glass to make sure they were ok.

A friend of mine has a lovely and privileged life on paper - lovely husband, great job, materially very well off, three great DC. the same time as my annus horribilus her 13 y.o son was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. I was - am - the lucky one.

Thank you for sharing. Sending a virtual hug.

I think the relativisation (if that's a word?) of sadness serves a useful purpose, because if we accept there is a hierarchy, we can get a useful steer on whether our feelings are a red flag for mental health or other social issues.
The post above where the person had to have a week off because their rabbit died for example, most would agree this falls outside of a mainstream reaction to a the death of an animal we know has a fragile and relatively short life span, and by nature has a limited offer towards fulfillment of a human being.
In this case we can go down the path of 'validating' the feelings, which really means saying that's OK, when actually, it's probably not. Because the extreme reaction could well be symptomatic of other issues, extreme loneliness, underlying depression, the last straw in a tough life, and the person may need help to recognise that. Sometimes the kind thing to do would be to gently point out they seem 'extremely upset' and are they OK in general.
On a more pragmatic and 'colder' note, human beings have to function as best we can. This means encouraging ourselves and each other to be resilient as possible in light of our more minor bad experiences. Validating and indulging what most people would think an over reaction isn't really viable if it becomes a widespread trend.

I have a few linked thoughts on this.

• you'll only ever be yourself so you'll never know how someone else experiences something or feels. I watched a documentary recently about a famous person who died by suicide and one of her friends spoke very movingly about (I'm paraphrasing) how she would sometimes think 'oh come on, it can't be that bad' and now realised that for this person it genuinely was that bad, she felt very deeply.

• if you're sad, it's kind of irrelevant that other people are sadder. You're still sad. Sometimes sure it's helpful to think 'oh things could be worse, think about poor mrs x' if you're trying to buck yourself up, but I find that only really gets me so far. The slightly different angle of 'counting my blessings' is more helpful for me.

• Sometimes the things that really impact you are not the things that people expect. The times I've been lowest in my life are not the times the 'worst' things have happened to me. Similarly, I remember once feeling a bit of a sham when I was getting a lot of support for something that externally seemed awful but which just hadn't impacted me that much emotionally. The friends I value (and the friend I try to be) are the friends that step up when you say you're struggling, rather than basing how much understanding/support they'll give on what the external event is and how awful they might think it is.
• Pet loss is quite a good example of this for some people I think. You might know that that a human dying is so much worse than your pet - but actually the experience of losing a pet can feel so devastating. I definitely have been sadder about my pets dying than grandparents.

Thanks OP for a thought provoking thread!

When I had an MC I didn’t think I could feel worse. It was only when I had a SB that I found I could.

When you were waiting for results would people saying 'well it could be worse' be helpful?
A few years ago I lost both parents, my fiance and my best friend. It could have been worse but the pain I felt and still feel is very real.

It is not an olympics of pain. Yes objectively speaking some tragedies are worse than others but people experiencing their various challenges can feel as bad as they like about them. The fact that people elsewhere are worse off does not reduce an individual’s pain.

I think there is a commonly accepted hierarchy of sadness, based on how the majority of people would categorise the relative events themselves. The death of your child coming above the death of your dog, the dog above the death of the 96 year old you say good morning to on a Friday and so on. You will always get some who might categorise differently. People who might think their own cancer diagnosis was worse than their grandads death, people who'd think the opposite. That's when you get the grey areas.
There are also people who reserve the right to think whatever is happening to them is by default the 'saddest' and that they are entitled to sympathy because their feelings matter more than their situation. These tend to be the people who say that all feelings are equally valid, its not a race to the bottom and so on. They tend to be s bit self centred and self indulgent.

It's not about what other people are also feeling, it's about what the person who is sad feels and how much. Take your example, you were devastated. Would it have changed anything if anyone told you how much worse they had it? Surely you knew there are people all over the world , losing their lives, their loved ones etc. Maybe you even know some personally that have suffered loss. Did that stop you feeling scared and sad and upset? Of course not, because in that moment it was all about you. As it should be.

There's no point in comparing anyway, or playing misery top trumps.

I used to work with someone who was signed off work because their rabbit had died.

You are right, of course. But it is not necessary, or helpful to tell the sufferer that other people have it worse. This is always going to sound invalidating.

For mid-range emotional pain, it is better to make it clear you accept that they feel the way they feel. If I had to say anything more it would be words to the effect that they will feel better in time and then just leave it there.

I think the concept of resilience in the face of devastating tragedies can be unhelpful because it tends to be expected too quickly. In the immediate aftermath of a bereavement for example, while it's something that yes, one has to live with in the long term, it takes time to process the emotional impact and it takes everyone very differently.

I'm a widow of 2.5 years and I'm constantly berating myself internally because others have it worse and I don't feel I have the right to be emotionally erratic. I hide as a result. We live in fast moving times and getting the chance to truly process such events which generate so much bureaucracy and change in one's life on a practical level is difficult.

The expectations of others are the big problem often. If someone is hurting, they just need comfort. If it is naturally given and a person us allowed their process, they will learn resilience in their own time, hopefully. I mean true, internal resilience, not superficial "stiff upper lip" service.

I've learned alot these last two years, mainly that ultimately only I can deal with my emotions in this new world. Comparisons with others are unhelpful, and just prolong the agony I find. I've weathered other storms, all different, but this has been in the top 3. Perspective comes with time. It's no good telling a drowning man how pretty the beach is, nor that at least they're not being eaten by a shark, just drag them onto the boat and head for shore.

I find it a useful tool to regulate my own feelings. But I wouldn't dream of telling someone else that 'it could be worse'.

My husband's illness and death were awful. But I found myself being so grateful for things that could have been worse. For the year of good quality life that his oncologist really didn't expect. For the fact that he wasn't in too much pain. For the fact that his chemo wasn't as horrible as most. That he, and I as his carer, had lots of support, which ultimately allowed him to die at home. I was constantly aware at each stage that many people weren't being as 'fortunate'.

For the last few month my mental health has been down the toilet, due to some awful circumstances made worse by someone's poisonous behaviour. But two weeks ago, my friend was told that he has almost certainly got Motor Neurone Disease.

My situation will resolve. His... well it doesn't need saying. My attitude to my own troubles changed overnight.

But if someone was telling me about their troubles, it would be really crass to undermine them by either referencing mine or his for comparison.

The whole quantifying grief thing can be such a double edged sword.I have 1 DS, but after that, I had four MCs which were all between 6 and 8 weeks. I never managed to carry another pregnancy to term.
At the time, I told myself that I should be grateful to have one child, and that the miscarriages didn't count. After all, in the past, people didn't do a test until they had missed two or three periods.
I never told anyone that I was pregnant until I was out of the first trimester anyway, so nobody apart from my husband knows that the miscarriages ever happened.
I never discussed secondary infertility with anyone either. It just felt so crass and cheap because people had it so much worse.
It wasn't until I had counselling for depression that I realised that a lot of my problems stemmed from feeling that I had no right to have feelings. However, I think that this is the sort of problem that should be dealt with in therapy rather than dumping on friends, when you don't know if they have been through the same or worse.

You can relativise it on your own scale (if you must - it’s not a competition) but you can’t decide how much pain X will cause someone else compared to Y.
For example I found it much, much harder to lose my dog than my grandad or uncle. So you might not agree, but I can tell you which was more sad from my perspective!

Yes and no. I lost my dad earlier this year and I'm mid 40s. Lost my mum in my early 20s. I gave myself such a hard time because I was heart broken and didn't feel I had a right to be. I was much older than when I lost my mum, a mum myself now, my dad was much older than my mum when he died. I didn't feel I had the "right" to feel as sad as did/do. I know people who lost both parents much younger than me. I really tormented myself for being so "weak".

I know what you mean and it can help put SOME things in perspective, but people should still be allowed to feel profound grief, sorrow and sadness.

I don't think it helps to make it relative though. I accept that trying to help people get perspective if they are catastrophising or getting disproportionately upset about things. I went for therapy at one point when I realised that my reaction to something was OTT and it was helpful. But telling someone who is very sad that it could be worse is not helpful or compassionate

You're talking about two different things. First you're talking about the idea that telling other people that there other people are worse off than them won't make them feel better.

Then, you're talking about how thinking about another person's suffering put your own suffering into perspective.

The difference is, the first issue is about how best to support other people. The second is about how you process your own feelings.

I would argue that trying to put other people's feelings into some kind of perspective for them isn't helpful, no. If someone feels sad it doesn't mean they think they are having the worst time anyone's every had. It means they have a difficult feeling they need to processes. So, a helpful thing would be to acknowledge the feeling - essentially just empathise and then they can process the feeling in their own way.

I’m so sorry for your losses, those of you who have shared their experiences of bereavement.

It was my sisters first pregnancy and it took a few years for her to conceive, my dear friend already has one child, my aunt has other sons. What right do I have to say one is worse than the other

^ OK, you lost me there. A 6 week miscarriage and the loss through suicide of an adult child… not just ‘not in the sane ballpark’ but not even the same sport, ffs.

Early miscarriages can be very sad. 20% of pregnancies end in early miscarriage. I had three after two years of trying, so fared worst than the average and am not speaking from a place of privilege.

I could never equate any of that to the loss of my child to suicide. A child you’ve borne and raised to adulthood, loved for decades, being so much in pain they end their life? Come on. That’s a nuclear bomb going off in your life.

(I think it was better for our mental health when we couldn’t know for sure if we were pregnant until later on)

I understand what you are trying to say. I'm conflicted on my feelings about it though.

I got divorced, lost my DD and later on my DDad, all in/around COVID. My friends found it hard to tell me their issues, they'd say "it isn't as bad, it isn't anything really.." I'd have to tell them to please not do that. Please don't minimise your grief and troubles and feel that you can't talk to me, because your troubles are big for you. Although secretly, I did feel like 'you have no idea what grief is'. I'd never say that to them though,and I didn't want them to feel that they couldn't talk to me.

My DP has dogs, who he half jokingly refers to as his kids. One got ill and he was so sad. Again, I understood his pain, and was there for him, but deep down, I felt a bit resentful that he could compare the loss of a dog to the loss of a child.

Again, I'd never say that to him. It would be dismissing his valid feelings.

So I think my view is that, yes, you can relativize sadness, but that you shouldn't, especially not in the moment!