Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

Yes I’m understand your annoyance re the holiday op but this is very true. They are living with this and judgment on top of the school exclusion etc must be awful.

Am I right in thinking you are saying the father goes to the beach as he can’t cope? Or was that your DH?

Your husband is right. Until they start parenting their child, steer clear. I wouldn't blame you for going home, but if you can move into another villa so you can enjoy your time there in peace, do that.

(I'm ND with AuDHD before anyone says I don't understand, it does nobody any favours to leave the behaviour properly unaddressed).

Thank you, this is amazing, and kind of sad. Parents of kids like Timmy have my full sympathy.

But the bottom like is, whichever way you do it, you have to do it. You cant allow your child to simply run wild, you need to teach them how to behave/ control them.

Yes, some hidden away, maybe. But also, because this kind of behaviour was not tolerated. I cant imagine someone's kid throwing my mum's bag into the pool! That would be scandalous.

Dont get me wrong, its great that we are much kinder and more inclusive as a society, but I think an aggressive 7 year old terrorising adults should either be taught how to behave or have therapy and medication to help her deal with the world. She has to live among other people, and there are boundaries. Her parents are doing her a massive disservice, imagine being excluded from primary school for aggression! What kind of life awaits her when she grows up?

Jane my post was nothing like judgement. I didn't even talk about the parents. I was talking in general about all angles of raising a kids with complex send and how difficult it was because there were so many outcomes.

I've also been one of the few on here so say don't judge the young girl as it's not her fault she's been taken away when she hasn't been coping at home.

It says more about your level of judgement that read something that isn't even there.

@altmember

All kids need consistently applied boundaries, discipline and to some extent, routines. I've always been led to believe that this is especially crucial with ASD kids? Any child that's got used to always getting their own way is going to have a tantrum when told something different, and they know this is the route to getting their way. If the parents can't/won't apply appropriate boundaries then they're making a rod for their own back.

You’re right, but the way in which those boundaries are enforced when a child is demand avoidant/PDA are entirely different. People with PDA cannot tolerate any loss of autonomy or the sense that another person (parent, teacher usually) is ‘in charge of them’. Not cause they’re spoiled (although they certainly can be) or poorly parented. Demand causes overwhelming anxiety and leads to the kind of behaviours the OP is seeing.

Most kids:
Parent: Timmy, If you throw that in the pool I will take you back to the room for the rest of the afternoon
Timmy: throws bag in the pool
Parent: ok, let’s go.
Timmy: cries in the room for 5 minutes, says sorry, learns lesson, remembers next time

PDA:
Parent: Timmy, If you throw that in the pool I will take you back to the room for the rest of the afternoon
Timmy: throws bag in the pool
Parent: ok, let’s go.
Timmy: has to be dragged to the room, scrapes his elbow and accuses parent of hurting him on purpose. He screams, swears, hits, bites for the ensuing 6 hours. He’s completely overwhelmed and tries to overturn a buffet at dinner so has to be removed, again by force. One parent has to sit in the room with him whilst he spits at them and laughs. They don’t get dinner. Timmy is far beyond the reach of reason and so disregulated that he kicks a wall repeatedly for 8 hours and keeps his whole family up. The next day they go to the pool and he immediately finds a bag, makes full eye contact with the parent and throws it in because you’re not the boss, he’s the boss

OR:
Parent: Timmy, what does it say on the Swimming Pool Info Sheet (1) about other people’s things?
Timmy: pauses, goes to throw bag in pool
Parent: Timmy shall we look at the information sheet together?
Timmy: comes to look at information sheet
Parent: What will happen if we don’t follow the swimming pool information sheet?
Timmy: We have to leave because the hotel manager doesn’t let people throw things in the pool
Parent: Yes, and we’re having a great time so if you’re feeling in a throwing mood we could throw these (2) to each other?

(1) If it’s written down and you are simply communicating the standards expected at the pool rather than giving an instruction, Timmy is receiving information via you and will absorb the rules. Before coming on holiday you have thought out the swimming pool rules that you have to call an info sheet, typed them, printed several copies and laminated one for the swimming bag. You have taken Timmy through the sheet each and every time you go to swim and confirmed that he has understood them to avoid arguing that he didn’t know/hear/understand. Timmy has been told that if we don’t abide by the rules then we’ll have to leave the pool because the hotel manager won’t allow it. The hotel manager is a convenient made up third party that you can use to externalise the demand so it isn’t coming from you to Timmy and he doesn’t feel threatened. You have several other information sheets for other potential flash points, but forgot to do a couple and will have to wing it and hope for the best. Sometimes it will work. Sometimes he will hit his brother or throw a glass at a wall

(2) soft skim toys which you researched extensively (nothing that will hurt anyone, nothing frustrating, nothing that might break a window etc) purchased a week ago and hid in the swimming bag just in case

5 minutes later Timmy takes a child’s inflatable flamingo and we go again, always avoiding directly instructing but constantly setting and enforcing boundaries and reminding Timmy of natural consequences rather than threatening punishment. It is exhausting and it never ends.

That’s not an exaggeration. This is life when you enforce boundaries with PDA. This was long, but the vast majority of people have no idea what demand avoidance is and what ‘just enforce some boundaries’ looks like.

edit; terrible formatting

All kids need consistently applied boundaries, discipline and to some extent, routines. I've always been led to believe that this is especially crucial with ASD kids?

@Altmember
Many children with ASD do need routines, but it's different with PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidence, thought possibly to be a subtype of autism).

I don't know this child's diagnosis but with PDA even routine and structure can be seen as demands, particularly if they are imposed upon the child. Individuals with PDA often do better with flexibility and novelty.

It sounds like your children are NT?
Really and truly, it's easy to judge and think that it's the parenting that makes the difference.
Unless the parenting is awful, it's not.

I have both NT children and an autistic child with some PDA tendencies. It really is a whole other ball game. It is far, far more challenging to parent my ND child and as others have said you do have to throw the rule book out the window. The parenting techniques used for NT children often simply do not work at all.

I think the parents here have made a bad mistake in involving others in their holiday, and this situation isn't at all fair on OP's family.
However, please don't underestimate how difficult life is for this family and don't judge them without ever understanding their situation.

Snap. 😔 Is there a place for us all to chat? I never see much on the ASN/ SEN boards.

This is not what a specialist psychologist would recommend.

I would explain to your friend that she hadn’t made you aware of her child’s difficulties and it has come as a surprise to you.

that you had come on holiday to spend time as a family and that due to DD behaviour you aren’t spending time together (as your husband and son are avoiding her). Explain that here on in you will be joining your family so you can enjoy precious time together.

of she challenges you explain that for you, her throwing your bag in the pool (would she have paid for a new phone/kindle etc?) and calling your daughter a fucking bitch is unacceptable.

then spend the holiday with your family. It will be awkward round the pool etc but I presume you’ve paid a lot of money for this and it isn’t fair that her daughters needs come above everyone else on this holiday including your children

All kids need consistently applied boundaries, discipline and to some extent, routines. I've always been led to believe that this is especially crucial with ASD kids? Any child that's got used to always getting their own way is going to have a tantrum when told something different, and they know this is the route to getting their way. If the parents can't/won't apply appropriate boundaries then they're making a rod for their own back.

I've got a close friend who's son is diagnosed ASD. He wasn't that challenging as a younger child, but friend was very casual with applying boundaries, because most of the time it was easier to just let things slide. She'd always say she was 'picking her battles' with him (which I'd translate to lazy parenting). But every time she backed down it gave him more ammunition and confidence for the next argument. Now as a teenager he's absolutely unstoppable, just does whatever he wants, and ignores any instruction to do/not do something.

By contrast my own kids, now teenage, know that when I say 'no' that's the the final answer. Sometimes (fairly often), there's foot stomping, face pulling, and occasionally a protracted discussion about my reasoning. But they all know and respect the boundaries.

You can't help here, nothing you do can improve your friend's child's behaviour. Don't go home early, but avoid the child at all costs, and make it clear to the parents exactly why. If they start bleating again about not refusing her because she'll kick off, point out that their attitude reflects their daughter's (or is it hers reflecting theirs??).

Is there some parenting rule book somewhere that states it's essential to avoid letting a child have a tantrum at all costs? Because I must've missed that one.

She's young. ND children are typically a third behind the developmental age of their NT peers. Just because she lacks developmental capacity to act more adaptively now, doesn't mean she always will.

And yet no therapy (PBS) is funded here so the kid will never learn (and the parents will never be taught how to teach) accepting "no" or any other denial as an answer. Shame the UK are so anti-PBS.

I don't blame you for your feelings,OP. I just also don't blame the parents. They are lost and scared of their own 7 YEAR OLD and zero people are willing to help them fund proper support to address this now.

Taking a seat next to you and joining in with sobbing 😥

Yep ❤️

This.
As a SEN parent you should know how hugely different a childs needs can be. I sympathise with your situation but your judgement is only making things worse. As a parent of an ASD/PDA (which sounds like what she is) & ADHD DD I feel for your friends, holidays can be hell but trying to maintain a semblance of 'normality' for your other children sometimes wins through. I can assure you they are as miserable as you are. Having supportive, non judgemental friends can make a huge difference.

PDA parent silently sobbing in the corner here 🥴

Also OP, unless you're an educational psychologist or other specialist you cannot help this family. Sacrificing your family's holiday isn't going to help, in fact you being there might be making the situation worse. Definitely let them know you will be doing things seperately (or at most with their two older children) from now on.

The child's behaviour sounds more like PDA than classic ASD and your friends are clearly struggling to cope. I would gently tell them that you need to have some time to yourselves as a family and will be spending the rest of the holiday doing things as a family. While I'm sympathetic to their situation, I don't think it's unfair of you to not want to spend your precious holiday time with them. Try not to judge them for their parenting, it sounds hellish and they are struggling.

Are you in a rental or in a hotel? If it's a hotel, surely at this point other guests will be complaining to management. In a hotel environment, it's not ok and potentially unsafe to have such a dysregulated child - both for the child herself and for others.

Really they should be ending the holiday for one parent and the youngest child at this point and heading home where hopefully the more familiar environment will help and the older children will actually get a proper holiday from the situation. I can't believe they're letting this happen to be honest. It's really strange behaviour from adults.

Fine, maybe they're struggling, they don't know what to do. Why have they pissed all this money away on a holiday that anyone could have seen was going to be awful for everyone rather than using the money for proper specialist support and advice. Their older child wants to leave home and is locking himself in his room FFS!

@upoutandin87 it is your holiday too and you should be able to enjoy yourself. My first move would to be engineer a situation where you can speak to all the adults alone. It is tough for the other mum so suggest that the two of you can go off to town/spa/whatever for the day. Your DH can take all the older kids to whatever the older kids want to do and the other dad can parent the ND 6 year old for a day.

That gives everyone who needs a break a day off from the 6 year old. It would also give you a chance to talk to your friend, offer her support, or say you can’t deal with this crap and avoid them for the rest of your holiday.

I am speaking from experience but I do also take your point I just feel very strongly that the 'neurodiversity' movement is becoming actively harmful to many ND families and children especially. There's a balance between permanently masking and totally unmasking and doing whatever the fuck you want. Well-meaning and / or exhausted parents are sometimes getting that balance wrong.

Probably because they were shut away from the world or in special schools and certainly not going on holidays and trips.

Also as a child growing up in the 80s you weren't frequenting parenting forums / whatever the equivalent was for parents with disabled kids (or their family and friends) to discuss their issues??

I would be pissed off if they hadn’t previously warned you how bad the behaviour was before you booked the holiday. I would be separating myself from them and if they appear tell them you need a break.

Just because the child is demonstrating disregulated behaviour in a new place doesn't mean she's doomed to a life of crime and despair. She's a small child with poor impulse control, it sounds

Honestly.

These threads get ridiculous.