Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

"This is true, but I find it difficult to believe the school permanently excluded this child without serious discussions with the family about their child's behaviour, even if their SEN provision is poor."

It really isn't that uncommon for children with SEND to be permanently excluded from primary school. It happened to a child in my extended family. They now attend an ASD school and present with no behaviour issues. (Their behaviour had never been a problem at home either so in some cases the issue is purely with the school.)

I have a lot of empathy for someone who's got two (presumably) neurotypical older children who've (presumably) been through the school system successfully. Her youngest is only 6, possibly just finishing year 1. She probably won't have known what questions to ask or what she should have been doing to prevent them managing her out.

I am not being sexist but acknowledging that SEN hassle tends to fall almost entirely on the mother.

I think you're projecting a lot there @Axelotylbottle.

I obviously don't know this family, but most parents try to consider all their children's needs. That they may be failing in these circumstances may be a reflection of how challenging their daughter's disability is, rather than their incompetence or laziness as parents. It is very easy to judge.

I know my own autistic DC finds holidays or days out challenging, but he also loves them and looks forward to them. His behaviour on holiday is quite a bit more difficult to manage than it is at home, but it isn't fair on him or on his siblings to stay home all the time just because it's less stressful for me as a parent.

This is true, but I find it difficult to believe the school permanently excluded this child without serious discussions with the family about their child's behaviour, even if their SEN provision is poor.

The parents behaviour on this holiday (not informing OP ahead of time) suggests their heads are firmly in the sand. Hopefully this holiday is a wake up for them. Poor child, parents putting her in situations she can't cope with, no school place from September.

My experience of schools is a lot of them have staff who want to support SEND but just don't have the resources and are not supported by the LA who promise help but never deliver. I'm sure some are rubbish but I think more are well meaning but horrendously under resourced. TA recruitment for example in some areas is incredibly difficult as the pay is so low.

No-one ever seems keen to answer the question 'what if you can't recruit the 1 to 1 the EHCP requires' - what if there is literally no-one willing to do that job in that area for that pay. That's where many schools are. School budgets are already going into deficit and cuts having to be made, there isn't any wriggle room.

Let's be realistic. A lot of schools are dreadful at meeting SEN needs. They're just not set up nor funded to do so in this country and no-one official really cares if they don't. The family hasn't necessarily done anything wrong regarding the school.

Do you really think the mum is looking forward to a September with no educational provision for her youngest, with equanimity?

I say that as a mum of a SEN DD who's just finished primary, has an EHCP and whose school were great, but I'm not deluded.

So it's have a holiday at any cost, even if it causes huge distress and dysregulation in a child with complex SEND needs? Sounds like she's having a pretty awful time. The family seem head in sand about her needs - they've minimised her exclusion from school, I wonder how much they've rejected what the school's told them. This is not in the best interests of that child, nor her siblings (one of whom wants to leave home).

The fact they didn't tell OP the extent of the problem is because they're ignoring /minimising their child's needs. If the OP drawing a boundary helps them wake up a little (though I'm sure the school tried a lot before exclusion happened) then that's a good thing for that child (regardless of the need for other people to be considered and not just one child). We don't know the situation of all the other people on that complex. There may well be disabled children, children with SEND for whom this child's behaviour will be very distressing. One child doesn't trump everyone else's needs. Sounds as if the family themselves are at least recognising this by their decision to stay off complex during the day.

I don't think the OP has done anything wrong, I think she's been incredibly accommodating and kind in the circumstances (of no previous information allowing informed consent to the holiday).

It's a bit of a stretch to say the child's older siblings aren't enjoying their holiday. They seem to be out at the beach a lot from OP's description of events.

So families with disabled children shouldn't go on holiday just in case it upsets other holiday makers?

No, if they want to have a joint or group holiday with other families they should be clear as to exactly what this will entail so that the other family can make an informed choice before spending large sums of money and using a big chunk of annual leave.

So families with disabled children shouldn't go on holiday just in case it upsets other holiday makers?

Lots of families of disabled children live with these challenges on a daily basis. This can be what disability is. Don't assume your normal is everyone else's normal.

The OP has also said other families have complained to the complex management. Is the complex just expected to suck up bad reviews and losing business because of this?

And it's not even as if the family are having a nice time. Well maybe the Dad who's fucking off to the beach, some perceptive PPs have commented on how they think he probably pushed for spending money on this holiday (rather than stepping up and acting responsibly to improve the family's situation overall) but the older children are clearly distressed, the Mum is upset and not coping and the child is out of control. None of them are having a nice holiday and they're also ruining other people's holidays.This holiday isn't benefiting anyone, least of all the child at the centre of it.

Okay, my apologies then.

I'm the pp and I meant their holiday. @InterIgnis is correct.

When on my phone I don't always elaborate in long sentences, assuming that people get the idea. Apparently not.

For the record, OP's family's enjoyment of their family holiday is just as important and precious as is anyone else's. They are not obliged to sacrifice themselves to "be kind."

@InterIgnis I disagree about what pp seemed to mean.
Can we leave it there please, and just agree to disagree? This is a waste of everyone's time really.

Which is what Betty seemed to mean - she wasn’t saying that the original poster of that comment was saying OP was less important as a person, she was saying that OP and her family’s desire for a nice holiday (not even a perfect one! Just one that isn’t miserable) isn’t less important and for that poster to be so dismissive of the impact this kid’s behaviour is having on them is frankly wild. OP and her family don’t have to accept a shit holiday because ‘it’s worse for the parents’, as if they’re obliged to suck it up and not be very reasonably pissed off with their friends for not being honest with them before they booked leave and spent their money.

Yes, you're right @InterIgnis, my apologies. My original point was to @BettyBardMacDonald.

Within the context of the actual discussion it was very obvious that ‘they are less important’ is referring to their holiday experience being called less important, not them as people.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make to@BettyBardMacDonald.
She thought a pp called the OP less important than her friend. I said she didn't and it was the perfect holiday that was being referred to as less important.

I wasn’t the poster you replied to with that, or at least not the one you quoted.

Within the context of the actual discussion it was very obvious that ‘they are less important’ is referring to their holiday experience being called less important, not them as people.

Having the attitude, as the original poster that promoted this, did, that everyone around this family is unreasonable if they (quite reasonably) have a problem with their kids behaviour and the impact of it of those around her, is only going to alienate people. Yes, their lives are clearly horrendously difficult, but it doesn’t give them to right to dump on OP and her family, let alone without so much as word of warning.

The parents need to be preparing for possibilities like this. A good start would be the dad actually doing some childcare so OP and her friend can go for their planned drink.

@JenniferBooth Sure, but it's probably not the best time for mum to go out when the child is not coping well and they are in firefighting mode. Another time, when the family are settled back at home, might be better - alrhough I understand they live some distance from OP so could be difficult to arrange.

For the moment, pp's suggestion of a chat on the balcony while the child is watching a film sounds good if it's possible. Or mum nipping out while she's asleep maybe.

No one was making a comparison between their relative value as human beings.

Yes, this was exactly my point to you@InterIgnis, pp hadn't made that comparison.

It did sound like you were suggesting otherwise when you said -
Declaring that some people can just suck it up because they are less important is not on.

Anyway, let's move on.
I do agree a discussion before the holiday was needed, but I feel huge sympathy for the family dealing with this everyday. It is so difficult.

Exactly And yet OPs friend wants to bring the kid along. Because the child doesnt like being away from her mum and i bet the dad is quite happy with that
So what happens if the childs mum gets ill and has to go into hospital. Will NHS staff have to set up a bed in her mums room? Take her down to the operating theatre next to her mum.
The parents need to be preparing for possibilities like this. A good start would be the dad actually doing some childcare so OP and her friend can go for their planned drink.
And i agree about the Martina Cole comment. Its also bloody patronizing That poster actually thinks OP has had time to read in peace? After what shes being put through on holiday?!

Brilliant post expertly said

Expecting them to be seen and not heard? Or expecting fair warning that you’re likely to be slapped, sworn at, lumbered with childcare and have your property destroyed BEFORE you commit your time and money to a holiday with them?

And yes, people are most definitely entitled to want to avoid any and all of the above. Correct.

Including in assuming that disabled people and their families should be seen and not heard unless they can be 'normal'

That is unfair. There's a big difference between what you're describing, and going away together as two families without pre-warning and giving the other family an option not to go.
There's a difference between expecting understanding and inclusion (rightfully), and expecting others to sacrifice themselves for you and put their own family's needs last.

You’re being entirely disingenuous.

No one was making a comparison between their relative value as human beings. Their desire for a holiday they actually enjoy is not less important than OP’s friend’s desire to have OP and her family there regardless of the impact their child would have. It isn’t at all unreasonable for OP and her husband to be throughly pissed off at their friends. No matter what they’re going through, they were wrong to let OP and her husband spend their annual leave and money on this holiday without given them important information about their daughter’s behaviour. It was wrong of them to expect their friend’s family to just suck it up as a matter of course because they have to (of course they have to! She’s their child!).

Expecting not the be slapped, sworn at and have your property damaged is not ‘expecting the perfect holiday’ either.

Struggling a bit to see how someone could be a good enough mate to holiday together for 20 years, and have some experience of autism, but still have zero insight. However, people are funny. Including in assuming that disabled people and their families should be seen and not heard unless they can be 'normal', and certainly not have the poor grace to participate in every day social activities in case they upset the non-disabled who are entitled to never have the messy business of disability impinge on their lives.