To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

That's just from the first three pages of the thread but I think it proves my point.

Later in the thread, the feminist Jennifer James herself chips in - some of you may remember her as the feminist who brought a court case against the Labour Party for shortlisting men for women's posts. Many on here donated to her petition.

She says...

'When a new poster, a black woman, is being abused, mocked, insulted, questioned about her own existence... and people are defending the abusers? jesus fucking christ what is wrong with you people?'

'Us white girls need to check our privilege. Don't ever pretend you don't see colour. If you don't see colour you don't see racism. Time people on here started listening to black women. If you find it uncomfortable when your white privilege is pointed out to you? Good. You should.'

' When OP said 'let's talk about white feminism' I think she was asking for a discussion, not a demonstration....'

So, I was actually going to go through and post some of the snarky quotes but I can't be arsed. I doubt you'll actually acknowledge their validity anyway.

In summary, OP was told she was 'incoherent', was told to google the abbreviation ODFOD (basically "fuck off and die"), repeatedly called a man, and again told to 'fuck off' (this was later deleted but is still pretty obvious as OP's response is "fuck off to where?".

But don't take my word for it. Here are some replies from other posters...

'What am I missing, which is causing people to be rude to this OP? I can't see anything exceptionable. I appreciate her point'.

'I went to bed after reading and commenting on a decent post - at last a woman of colour is not berating me for being white and feminist! I thought the OP was absolutely fine. And I wake up to all this vitriol.'

'I didn't find it incoherent. I thought it was an interesting read from another perspective. I am quite disappointed by the snarky responses.'

'I don't understand why people are reacting badly to the OP. It makes sense to me (as a white, middle class feminist). Like it or not there is a historic problem of woc feeling like white feminists don't understand their problems.'

'Magnificent, your rant seems perfectly reasonable to me. I really don't know why some posters have reacted the way they have.'

'I get you OP - no idea why you’re being snarked at...'

'Maybe I'm really naive but I believe a woman wrote it. Confused I genuinely don't understand what was so objectionable about what she said either.'

'I can't believe one of them told you to fuck off! Utterly ridiculous response. And all this "well if I'm NOT ALLOWED to save you from wearing a hijab you can forget about my support! Can't get ANYTHING RIGHT!" stuff would be hilarious, if it weren't so depressing.'

'I don't see what has caused AssignedPurrfect to decide the poster is a man.'

'What exactly is your problem? What have you taken such great offense to?'

'I didn't find the op incoherent. And I didn't find it offensive either - genuinely surprised some posters did.'

'Jesus Maloney! What’s with some of the responses?!'

'I don’t understand why people are accusing you of being a man OP.'

'I understand why people are touchy, but the OP read just fine to me.'

'I would just like to add to the voices above who said they appreciate your post. I would understand if you've been put off by the response you've received, but personally I hope you stick around as I would like to read a lot more from you and a lot less from posters such as...'

' OP I'm also a bit confused about some of the responses here. I have found your rant really refreshing.'

You provided no such evidence for your prior claim. That is false. Please do post the quotes from multiple people personally attacking this woman, and provide evidence they were "feminist section regulars." I'm sorry, but you just can't go around making wild accusations like that. It's dishonest and unfair. If you are a person of honour you either back your shit up or you retract it. You don't dance around trying to avoid it, making passive aggressive swipes at anyone who questions your claims. You're closing in on a Godwin award with this Holocaust crap, because likely next you'll be comparing me to Hitler to avoid backing up your statement. Get a clue- these manipulative tactics are not working.

Christ, it's a bit like arguing with a holocaust denier who refuses to accept that certain things happened, despite incontrovertible evidence being provided. This is one thing that annoys me about a lot of modern feminists (and identity politics people). The sheer intellectual dishonesty.

Traditionally, people would debate and state that whilst they understand each other's points they simply don't agree. However, I see a modern trend of asking for 'proof' and then completely refusing to accept it even when provided.

I used to think it was bonkers as any normal person would recognise the evidence, but then I realised that the reason they do it is because they know that not everybody will actually read the links, so when they say "you still haven't provided proof" some people will actually believe this as they haven't been arsed to actually read the provided data. It's basically bluffing.

Anyhow, I didn't want to subject everybody to me posting quotes from said thread, but if you're going to accuse me of making 'unsupportable accusations' I guess I feel obliged to.

Example of a disingenuous pattern of posting;

"I'm leaving this thread and will not be responding further."

Later, after returning to the thread and posting in the exact same broken record vein, it's; "I'm sorry for derailing the thread."

This is followed by approximately fifteen thousand further derailing posts exactly like all the other derailing posts.

IOW, you cannot support your accusations that there was some "feminist section" gang attack on this woman, because it didn't happen. That's what I thought.
So now you just make more unsupportable accusations against me instead of backing up your statements.

We tried practical solutions - rape crisis and DV shelters. Men complained about being expected to pay for them when they couldn't use them.
Women can't fix violent or broken men. Men need to step up now.

I feel part of what puts me off is that so much modern feminism is theoretical and talky rather than actually practical, or even examining practical solutions (obv realistic ones not male curfews).

Well, I can agree with that but it's not the majority of what you hear on this forum. Most people don't really seem to want to look below the surface.

Men who identify as not men will use male violence as a reason they don't want to use male only spaces. So even the men are saying "it's the men".

Maybe I haven't been clear, but I'm not saying I want feminists to shut up. I'm saying I'm sick of hearing them whinging and spouting the same old soundbites rather than actually doing anything helpful. Obv 'not all feminists' as there are some that actually walk the walk, but far too many just come across as misanthropes that love complaining.

It is clearly not enough. But I do think we have to change how we bring up all boys and what we expect from all men as part of the solution. As well as much more specific work on the particular sorts of problems in particular situations you mention.

Literally nobody is saying it's the victim's fault.

But it is men. Men from all walks of life committing violence towards children/women/ men from all walks of life. The context of the violence might change depending on cultures, class, situation etc. but it is men being violent.

I guess part of my point is that continually saying "oh, it's always men" and then using this as a tool to implicate all men (because we can't tell which are the good ones innit) just doesn't really help anyone and just obfuscates the more complex factors. It's quite frankly not enough.

But it's not the victim's fault that he shares the same sex as his attacker. That's like men saying "oh, well it was her own husband/family that killed her, nothing to do with us".

As I said above, it's more nuanced IMO. A gay/ethnic male beaten to death by homophobic/racist thugs likely has much less in common with them than he does with other demographics/communities despite sharing the same sex.

Going back to my earlier point, one of my main criticisms with a lot of garden variety modern feminism is that it completely lacks the nuance necessary to tackle these issues. The cynical side of me speculates that it's because many aren't actually so concerned with actually helping solving it as they are with moaning about men (which is much easier to do when you lump them all together rather than focus on specific demographics of men).

When you reduce it to 'male violence' you lose the nuance by putting it on all men. The fact that is always lost is that, despite male violence always being committed by men, it's isn't always perpetrated by the same demographic.

A white accountant from Kensington likely wouldn't know where to start in tackling honour killings in insular Muslim communities in Rotherham. It's nothing to do with him despite being male. In this situation it makes more sense to somehow reach the young males (given that it's often brothers/cousins doing the killing) and it's unlikely they'll listen to some white Christian bloke. In many cases the victims are also let down by the authorities - I remember one of the more recent ones had contacted them several times before she was murdered. And I'd bet those authorities weren't solely staffed by men, probably quite the opposite being a service for vulnerable women.

But what paticularly irks me is that it's not just a case of ignoring the nuance, but in many cases being actively reductive by saying things like "honour killings, spousal murder....meh, it's all male violence". This IMO is actively damaging the process of helping these women because it takes the nuance away in cases where it's particularly vital that a strategic approach is taken.

Another case that sticks is my mind is the Land Rover employee who was fatally stabbed in an Asda not too far from me. He was a middle aged family man who had challenged some teenage lads that were pissing on the floor and banging on cubicle doors. So much for speaking up, eh. He'd probably have been less likely to have been stabbed as a female.

No doubt the above case will be lumped in with general 'male violence' that men need to tackle, but what the fuck was going on at home that these young teens were taking knives out the house and even considered stabbing an adult that told them off? Statistically, most knives carried by teens are the standard kitchen type so I think in these cases the parents are more obliged to act than the average bloke on the street like the one they killed (obv allowing for the fact that parents can't always control their teenagers).

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men"

But it is men.

I'm white but I'm most definitely not middle class. Im also not really coming at this from a feminist view point. As you say there are many less privileged demographics and I feel as a woman it's my duty to use my voice as and when I can. This includes speaking up for those women who perhaps aren't confident enough to speak out or can't articulate why they feel the way they do but they know something is wrong.

I'm not hand wringing and playing the victim I'm enraged at the men who hurt others and I won't stop pointing out that 99.9 % of the time when we hear another woman has died it is at the hands of a man.

No I've never been murdered but every day I read about women and children who are. Or women and children who are sexually assaulted and harmed by the men in their lives. This includes middle class women.

Why is it any less the mother's responsibility than the father's if a teenage boy is taking a knife out the draw every time he goes out?

I think that you are right that male violence is a very big problem for men too. But it is a different sort of problem (I think this is probably the wrong place to analyse that claim), and I don't think it unreasonable that a women's forum should look at male violence from a female perspective. And I really don't think day to day fear of violence is confined to feminist theorists. And actually more extreme anti-men ideas have hardly been mentioned on this thread at all!

When it comes to solutions to violence clearly men and women have to be involved, but why use this thread to criticise white middle-class feminists? You can't separate male violence from pervasive (affecting men and women, and most of us) ideas of masculinity.

This thread is revealing in that it shows what many (obviously not all) women feel in everyday day life, and I don't think many of them are feminists inventing their fears to make a political point.

What's stopping men campaigning against male violence? If only they would step up.

Go and read the first few pages of the thread again. I'm not here to educate you. If you can't see what I'm referring to it's probably because you're being wilfully ignorant or share the same mindset as the posters being rude to the OP.

But study after study shows that most women don't agree with modern feminism, mentioning such reasons as 'man hating'. Yes, men being more violent than us is a real societal issue but feminists try and make it all about themselves and this doesn't help IMO.

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men". Pretty sure I've even seen that old favourite on this thread. And if you challenge it you're 'a man' or 'an MRA'.

People on here like to push the trope that it's usually gang violence or 'drunken men fighting outside pubs' but that just isn't true. Look at the lad who was killed at the tube station the other day. Loads of examples like that. Another guy in a wheelchair was stabbed to death only last week and a 13 year old boy was fatally stabbed near me a couple of days ago. You'll never hear anything about this in the same way you would if it was a 13 year old girl. Are we really going to say it was his own fault as a child barely into his teens? And these are just random examples off the top of my head. There are likely loads more.

This kind of stuff is what makes men resentful. Not only having their issues ignored but then being told that as a man they have to shut up and listen to lectures on how bad women have it in spite of actually being much more likely to be killed themselves.

Feminists seem totally blinkered to this and I do wonder if it's because so many of them are white middle class graduates who never really get exposed to the demographics that carry knives etc. It's all arguing on twitter for them, not worrying that their own son might get stabbed.

Yes, I saw that. I assume they meant the "fuck off" poster, who also said other things which have been deleted.
Be specific. Other than the fuck off poster, who exactly are you talking about?

Are you sure you read the same thread? Quite a few posters literary said "I don't know why you're being given such a hard time, OP".

You can try and downplay it but the thread is there for everyone to see with their own eyes.