It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

@Nc4dis

It’s a global phenomenon that is correlated with….wait for it….educating women.

Indeed. And it’s no surprise that if there’s one trend which consistently correlates with low birth rates it’s increased levels of education for women.

Its almost as if the better educated women get the less they want children and the fewer children they want. As well they might, because having lots of children generally makes people poorer and limits their opportunities.

Its really galling to have this spun as “selfishness” or emotional deficiency. It’s entirely sensible and logical.

Mostly down to cost. A mortgage for a family sized house should only need one living wage to get (as it used to be for donkeys years pre 1980s). Not sure how it can be fixed other than massive house building project, better affordable transport and probably UBI. And I can't imagine that happening soon...even the latest home building will probably be a lot less than what's needed.
(Guess I'm having a pessimistic day 🙄)

Those stats are interested @TipsyCoralOtter - it's also very common knowledge that most kidnappings, child deaths etc. are at the hands of their own parents too.

So I think people can be forgiven if they don't really buy the "unconditional love" shtick.

"Unconditional love for your child"

I do not doubt that the bond a parent and child has is something special, as a daughter - I know I would do absolutely anything for my own mother - she raised me with unconditional love and support (and she's supportive of my choice not to have children, too). However, to diminish peoples loves for their partners or pets or whatever because its just "not the same" is patronising as hell - feelings are subjective, not objective. Also, some people are just content with not feeling "that" kind of love... I also don't want to own a cat (which many people adore), nor do I want to move to Australia (which many people have a huge drive to do).

But if parents experience this overwordly level of love that childfree folks just can't understand, why is it that parents are also most likely to be perpetrators of physical and psychological abuse towards their children?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/abuseduringchildhood/findingsfromtheyearendingmarch2016crimesurveyforenglandandwales

Additionally, it's not something that can just be fobbed off on fathers. Of those children who experience abuse, 4 in 10 children are abused by their father, 3 in 10 children are abused by their mother.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/childphysicalabuseinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019

People can want different things out of life. This is a thread asking essentially why people aren't having as many children... therefore you have your answers from childfree people. Just like the many threads which ask parents whether they would have been happy without childreen, many then explain why they would not be happy living that lifestyle. Answering the question of the thread.

Yep. Recent thread on Statutory Maternity Leave -some parents commenting they didn't agree with extending/increasing it. A couple of child free people post, one was a bit obnoxious about it and someone else starts an entire thread on 'mother and child haters on Mumsnet', with posters following up with how the nasty child free shouldn't be on here and how unicorns and rainbows this site would be if it was just parents allowed.

And if a childfree person finds kids loud and annoying they’re evil, but if a parent says “I can’t stand all other kids apart from my own” then it’s absolutely fine.

And also your love for your partner is nothing special, it’s conditional and partners can always be replaced…..

Don't forget that anyone whose childfree but has animals that they love and care for also has issues - but of course if a parent owns and loves a dog that's okay 👌

I find it’s quite common on MN for posters to let parents get some digs in, then wait for the childfree to respond and pop up with some variant of “the children are so bitter and angry!” or “why do the childfree have to resort to personal attacks?”

They never admonish other parents and so it’s incredibly disingenuous. I just ignore it.

I don’t know what this poster was describing as “the West” but I’m pretty sure even China and Russia have lower birth rates than the UK 🤣

It’s a global phenomenon that is correlated with….wait for it….educating women.

On a personal level it doesn’t really matter if people have children or not and I doubt that many people give much thought/care about whether someone has kids or not, but at a societal level a falling birth rate is a real problem.

Nailed it.

ODFOD.

And yes, I have children. Not experiencing having children is the same as not experiencing other things, like going to Australia or breaking a leg. People who haven't done those things will never fully understand what it's like. But please don't insinuate that you're somehow a better human being because you have procreated.

And also your love for your partner is nothing special, it’s conditional and partners can always be replaced…..

Exactly.

I've also noticed that the parents have insulted the actual personality or the childfree, but it's not happened the other way around.

Yet they're the ones saying we don't understand love or empathy 🙄

Well yes, when you're childfree and are told you're selfish, lacking emotion or empathy, are incapable of true love etc. it does get a bit wearing and it's no wonder people get defensive.

I answered upthread about why I personally didn't want children and was very patronisingly asked whether I'd thought about the positives - like I was some kind of idiot who was incapable of making a decision!

@sunsetsandboardwalks and we're being told on this thread there's no other sort of love, that only the love of one's own children has Real Meaning and Opens The World, while at the same time, by the same poster, being sneered at for loving other species.

Make it make sense ...

With some of the child free content I see online, it can come across as very defensive and at times, attacking. I don't know why some of those people have to denigrate others, ie. People with kids, if they are so content with their own lives.

Have you read the thread?

It's full of parents saying that people who have chosen to be childfree are selfish, or incapable of love, or don't understand empathy or emotion. We're told there must be something wrong with us, that we had traumatic childhoods or that we just haven't thought it through properly because parenting is so wonderful.

I would personally have no need to defend myself if people didn't consistently post offensive shite about my choices 🤷‍♀️ I'm very happy to be child free but when you constantly read things about how much of an awful person you are, it's no wonder people clap back 👍

I think online communities do have a real tendency to get defensive and turn into a competition of who can outdo each other. You get it with all sorts of communities.

'With some of the child free content I see online, it can come across as very defensive and at times, attacking.'

Women who are child free by choice have had to put up with some pretty searing opinions and comments throughout history. Even now, some seem to think it's unnatural, unfeminine, selfish for a woman to admit she doesn't want children.

To see how child-free women are still viewed look no further than Trump running mate JD Vance's recent comments.

It gets wearing. No wonder some people slap back.

I take it you've never heard of a country called South Korea? You should check its birth rates. They're among the lowest in the world.

Then there are countries like Japan?l, Bhutan and UAE which all have birth rates lower than the UK's. It's not like this data is secret. You could have looked it up before posting what you posted.

Op, unfashionable is an odd turn of phrase. Children are not commodities, we are talking about human beings, not hand bags. Very capitalist outlook.

With some of the child free content I see online, it can come across as very defensive and at times, attacking. I don't know why some of those people have to denigrate others, ie. People with kids, if they are so content with their own lives. People are diverse and will choose different paths through life, I think this a positive thing. We don't need to tear others down to validate our own choices.

I think you've made an interesting point here.

Although changing slowly, right from maternity leave, women generally do more of the child and house wrangling and yet mostly still need to work. I think this awareness may be affecting some women's choices too.

Until men are required to participate in paternity leave for a sustained period (e.g. some Nordic countries use it or lose it approach) thus hopefully establishing a more gender balanced approach to children and the home, I don't think this will change.

As opposed to those glorious countries where women have no choice and no alternative? OK then…

Do you treat the teenagers who tell you they definitely want to have children one day with the same condescension?

I think being childfree has ALWAYS been cool, it is just now that some people are finding out 😎

Agree with this. I find it disturbing how many people seem to have quite severe mental health issues, anxiety, depression or ADHD, autism etc then think nothing about having children and subjecting them to this, and worse usually passing it on. Feel so sorry for the kids!