It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

Continuously producing children to have enough “working age adults” seems like a massive pyramid scheme. We need to reassess how we do things in society as we cannot force people to have children.

I don't understand how raising kids is selfless when the vast majority of people choose to be parents for selfish reasons?

Please learn to read.

Thank you.

You aren't any less selfish because you are raising children you chose to have for selfish reasons though. That's just what you do when you commit to something. You haven't suddenly become a different or better person any more than a childfree person who also commits to something long-term. Childfree people still have responsibilities in life.

I don’t see why you have gendered it - my comment was gender neutral.

I don’t know why you find it surprising that the same logic is not applied the other way - those who do not want children are far smaller in number than those who do.

Deciding to have children and having/parenting children are very different things. Deciding to have a child is certainly selfish, as I agree you are doing it because you want to. But raising kids has been incredibly selfless so far. I’m a bloody slave to then!!!!!

But is that not also what we did when we decided to have children? We weren't forced to have children. We weren't thinking about the planet or the future we're bringing children into. We did it because it was something that pleased us.

Having children is no more selfish or selfless than not having them.

It wouldn’t but it meant they could just think of themselves if they wished. No guilt. Just doing exactly as they pleased.

I agree completely. I’ve long since maintained that those who chide you for not having children do so for four main reasons:

1. Parenting has been the most amazing experience and they genuinely think you’re missing out. Doubly so if they were ambivalent about having children before they did and found that - for them - it’s the best thing they ever did.

2. They think it’s just “what you do” and you’re making a fuss. Just get on with it and conform, would you?

3. They regret having children and don’t see why you should dodge the bullet. If they had to suffer then so do you.

4. FOMO. They want everyone around them to have the same life so they don’t ever have to feel like they’ve missed out on anything.

I’ve experienced all of those and they are all bloody irritating.

Why would not having children mean you live a selfish life?

I think this has definitely been a factor for DH’s siblings @Comedycook. They’re geographically scattered but keep in regular touch and aren’t estranged. In a crisis, they have each other’s backs, they meet up several times a year, etc. As an only child, I haven’t got this and it probably did influence my life choices.

I'm not sure if unfashionable is the right word, but I do think it's become a lot more "normal" to not have children, only have one or to have them later in life. I've definitely noticed this in my circle. In my family I have a sibling and several cousins in their twenties like me and only myself and one other has a child. Most of the others are no where near even thinking about having children yet, or likely won't ever have them. It's the same in my DH's family. Yet our parents generation all had children or at least were close to having them at this age.

You need to make friends with people who either have no family or they are far away or estranged.

That’s not the case in my friendship group at all. We are all professional working people. Most of us moved away from home for university and have created our lives with our partners. Most, not all have had kids.

But our weekends are very much about spending time with friends, as our kids are at university. Very rarely do our friends have the family commitments that you describe here. Leaving for university was key in breaking that geographical bond and our social lives are wide but extended families are definitely not at the centre of it. For logistical reasons. With cousins living in Scotland, London, Wales, Australia, Canada and the US, it’s simply not possible. And most have siblings working in different cities or overseas.

Friends are so important to us all. And we probably actually have a lot more in common with them.

If you mean in hospital, yes. Usually friends and neighbours. Less common are private carers or someone from the residential home. Church people. People with specific illnesses or disabilities sometimes have volunteers from those charities. It's rare for someone to have no one at all.

The ones that do have no one at all are usually the very elderly from nursing homes. They actually often have children, but those children are quite old themselves and not really able to do anything.

Basically just build a community and support network around you. Not everyone has to be a close friend. You can use services to meet your practical needs.

I see enough posts from adult children overstepping on the elderly parents forum to think it's better to be independent in old age if you can be

I didn't have children for company in old age or someone to be my carer. I hope they live their own lives. I coped before they were born and I'll cope when they grow up.

I understand that. I’m saying that in my view, it’s not a ‘tragedy’ either way. I wasn’t planning to have children, and I got the full panoply of the ‘selfish/chilly careerist/ dying alone’ remarks till I had DS at 40 (after which I got ‘an only is a lonely’ and ‘you’re selfish to only have one’, usually from the same people😀🙄).

Nothing could give me more pleasure than seeing DS exploring the world, supported by more educated and financially comfortable parents and more opportunities thsn either of his parents had. I hope we’ll be able to continue to love one another regardless of proximity. DH and I have plans too, for when DS is making his own way. We won’t be sitting about waiting to be visited.

Thank you, Holly. In some ways I think I will always regret not having a family. It’s not that I don’t want children, just that my circumstances aren’t right. I do worry I’ll lie alone in hospital one day with no one to visit or bring me any of the little things I might need. I just hope that I can be a good enough person throughout my life that there may be some people who care about me. May I ask, so you see patients receiving support from those outside their family?

@Jhound. As I said upthread though, most of my middle-aged friends do support their parents in various ways, including myself, who lives in a different country.

Thanks to technology, I can ring my Dad daily , I can arrange various services for him and I visit every 3-4 months. I also encourage other family and friends to call and visit him.

It’s slightly off topic for this thread, but it does annoy me when MN’ers suggest that most middle-aged people don’t make an effort with their elderly parents, that’s not the case at all among my friends ( with a couple of exceptions).

DinnerOnTheGrass, the whole premise of much of the thread has been telling the child free they will die alone and lonely and how awful that would be. I think it would be a greater tragedy for those whose expectation is that their children will be around in their old age for companionship and comfort, and in reality their offspring are nowhere to be seen.

There's a medium ground between being in your children's pockets and never seeing them from one year to the next. Would you honestly not be a bit hurt if you never saw your son?

I've been a nurse for what feels like a million years. Having children definitely does not guarantee someone won't die alone. Especially if those children have their own families or live a distance away. And you wouldn't believe how many children are estranged from their elderly parent(s).

My advice for old age is write a Will, have a funeral plan, find a good retirement village/home so you will still have your freedom but also support as your needs change over time. This might be what ExtraCare housing is? If so, you're being smart. The other thing to think about is if you end up in hospital, you will need someone to bring you things and take care of your laundry. Your living facility might accommodate this. If not, you can hire a private carer. Or if you are very involved with a church community there are often people willing to help with this.

Edited to say that last part about a private carer is only really a problem if you don't have friends around you anymore.

Whilst there are simultaneously warnings about many jobs becoming obsolete due to technology.

Even if this is a problem, the answer to it isn’t ’compel people to have children they don’t want’, as if that wouldn’t naturally create a whole host of it’s own problems even outside of increasing overpopulation to prop up an unsustainable pyramid scheme.

Ultimately, humans will adapt to changing circumstances as they always have done.

Why is it? I didn’t have a child as some kind of quid pro quo of childhood care in expectation of reciprocal old age care. I took off to explore the world and spent much of my adult life to date in other countries, despite being fond of my parents. I hope and expect DS will do the same, and won’t be restricted by whatever country I live in when he’s at the wing-stretching phase. If he, like his parents, enjoys life on the move, and DH or I die suddenly, it’s perfectly possible he won’t be at our deathbeds, and I will make sure he knows I’m fine with that. Love doesn’t have to involve end of life care, or encompass geographical proximity. Having him has been a delight and a privilege added to a life that was already good. I’d hate it if he went around burdened by obligations.

It's a problem for humans because we will soon run out of working age adults.

If you are only concerned about the environment and not at all concerned about the well-being of humans then you will of course not regard it as a problem!
Should we assume from your post that you are in that group?