It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

I'm not sure. You made the conscious choice not to have kids...not sure what criteria you based that choice on but fair enough if it suited you. Sensible decision for you I'm sure. But from a biological point of view, our desire to care and nurture is so we procreate and create more of our own species. We may have pushed that desire onto pets because it's easier for us, but I'm pretty sure nature didn't give us these instincts so we could care for a totally different species.

I've come across this. IME it's often expressed by people who would dearly love to have children but who for various reasons think that option isn't open to them/isn't right for them. They use the sneery attitude as a defence mechanism. Rather than annoying me, I find this attitude really sad.

There are many reasons the younger generations aren't having children.

And thank god these women now see there is a very clear choice. And that there is nothing wrong in deciding not to have children! If more women considered their choices, there would be less unhappy mothers and kids out there.

And parenting styles these days is 100% a factor. It's that my niece has cited as the reason that she has chosen not to have children. She doesn't want to fight the battle of attempting to raise a child in a world of gentle (non) parenting.

I’ve never been on any hormonal contraception - only condoms - and never had any sort of urge or desire for children 🤷‍♀️ In my 30s now

I agree, but hormonal contraception is a relatively new thing. It stops you getting pregnant but it also alters your entire hormonal makeup on a daily basis, which must have some impact on people's thinking and behaviour, surely?

There is a sneering attitude towards children ('crotch goblins') and their parents ('breeders') amongst some hipster types and other trendy arseholes.

To answer the original question, I don't think it's unfashionable to have kids, I think there's a certain morality that's popular at the moment around making good and responsible choices that makes people feel that having children is a bad choice.

Equally, women have utilised contraceptive and abortive measures (with varying degrees of success) for as long as we’ve been giving birth. Infanticide also used to be common, and still is in some countries where access to contraception and abortion is limited.

Do you have to have a house in a desirable area before having children? This is a genuine question btw as it relates the 'standard setting' I mentioned in my own post- the idea that it's wrong or bad or foolish to have children until you've met certain criteria.

4 of my 5 children don’t want children for various reasons . Only one has a child but isn’t sure if yo have another ! Obviously it is their choice but I do worry about them later in life with no off spring to visit ect . Amongst their friendship circles a lot of people seem to adverse to having children as well . All late 20s early 30s

It's not that it is "unfashionable".

It's incredibly difficult these days - much more so than 30 years ago - to get an education, find a suitable partner, establish a career, save money, and buy a house in a desirable area.

On the other hand you have people who do not do any of these things but have lots of children and, frankly, their lives look shit. Bad relationships, skint, no option to leave, no holidays, horrible homes in awful areas. And you'll find they are almost always subsidised by the state or family. It's like they think as far as getting pregnant and then expect everyone else to pick up the slack.

So in short it's harder to build a nice life before having kids, so there are a lot of people with shit lives and lots of kids which is not at all appealing.

In evolutionary terms, humans who want sex will procreate, leading to more humans who want sex. Desire for sex (in this case I'm talking about hetero piv sex) is built into our biological makeup. I grew up in Ireland where contraception was not widely available prior to the 1980s (due to the Catholic church despising women) and one older woman commented to me that in her time people used to get married just to have sex as having sex outside of marriage was too dangerous (given said woman hatred).

Pre contraception a desire for piv sex, barring any fertility issues, would eventually lead to children - you just accepted it. Many women ended up with far more children than they would ever have chosen to have. Now, with contraception, you can fulfil your desire for sex without a baby ever being a possibility, which turns having children from an inevitability into a choice.

On the whole, that's a good thing - my gran had nine c-sections and almost died on the last one, which is barbaric. However, from looking at my own friends, it seems like the freedom of choice has also added an element of paralysis, where people feel it's wrong or foolish to have children unless you can give them a certain standard of living. I know people who definitely have the desire to have children but who are incredibly hard on themselves in terms of their expectations - they feel they have to have a house of a certain size, a certain income etc before they can even consider having a child. Being a parent has turned into a normal life event open to all to something that is only accessible to certain people who meet certain criteria. It worries me because I feel some of those friends will miss the boat and have huge regrets.

I also wonder what impact hormonal contraception has on the desire to have babies (I've never taken hormonal contraception). There's no getting away from the fact that having a baby isn't really a rational decision, for women in particular. It's a massive and terrifying undertaking that is likely to have at least some negative impact. My wish to have my first child was definitely hormonal - I wasn't in a good place financially, DH and I were renting but I was fixated on having a baby. I just knew I had to have one. Would I have felt that way if my hormones were being controlled artificially? If I'd had to make the decision in a really rational way and come off the pill to make it happen, would it ever have happened? I feel like the hormonal desire pushed me towards the decision - without it I wonder if the practicalities would have seemed too overwhelming.

Perhaps women who are on the pill but who are undecided about babies should come off the pill for a while (use condoms or something else) and see how they feel then?

A child costs 10k a year, so even with all the benefits, I can’t see how you’d be in profit?

I can’t see how at all, the basic cost for raising a child is around just below £200k, basic cost, not with anything luxurious. Surely these women would end up either in debt if they could actually get a credit line, or the child would be living in poverty?

Please explain how it would improve matters for single women, as I truly can’t see it.

Sure, but that isn’t an innate urge to care for and nurture kids.

I’m sterilised now, but I could have had kids, and was capable of pregnancy. I was also in the position where having kids wouldn’t have posed a financial strain, and my life was very stable. I never for a moment considered continuing said pregnancy because I explicitly didn’t want children. I’m still financially comfortable and stable, but again my nurturing and caring instincts aren’t geared towards children any more than my romantic ones are geared towards women.

No but I think there is a huge amount of social pressure to parent like that nowadays - parents are called “controlling” if they have strict discipline or neglectful if they let their children have independence and don’t ferry/supervise them everywhere.

There is so much pressure on anything parenting related. Anything women can do to make it easier- judged. Want to have an elective c section? “Too posh to push”. Want to bottle feed so your husband can do half the nights? Selfish. Work full time? Why bother having kids to farm them out. SAHM? Lazy and dependent on a man. There’s so much judgement on not following whatever latest research or guideline just came out.

My SIL went on holiday to Cornwall - they had to stop every 2h of a 6h journey because according to research, the baby can’t be in a car seat for >2h. MIL was shocked….she said in her day they did 10 hour drives with the baby (my husband) in the seat the whole time.

But nobody makes you parent like that. You're still allowed to be strict and do what works for you too. I've never wanted to be bezzie mates with my kids. I'm an adult. Their conversion is not that interesting. And worse, my teen knows enough to have opinions but not enough to really think it through.

And to be needed I suppose.

I don't think it's necessarily a conscious thought process...but if you have pets, I imagine you do so because you have an innate urge to care for and nurture something

I don’t really see this “horrible abusive men everywhere” IRL, all my friend’s partners are lovely, my husband is lovely and all the dads I know are very involved and do their share. The problem is parenting now is so different. Children used to be seen as a part of your life, they slotted into your existing routine. They could be told no and teachers had respect and authority. Now parents lives are meant to revolve around the kids, they want to be their friends, behaviour in schools is out of control and teachers have no authority - the parents will side with their children. Very different attitudes and societal change.

Abductions/murders are sensationalised in the news, so people are scared and refuse to let their kids go out alone. Meanwhile the kids spend their lives on social media and are exposed to awful content….and all have anxiety.

I don’t have dogs, but I have pets. I have pets because I want pets, I don’t have kids because I don’t want kids. If I didn’t have pets, I wouldn’t suddenly be inclined to have kids. The two aren’t connected.

It’s like saying I have cats as a replacement for dogs, or a husband as a replacement for a wife - ignoring the fact that I have zero interest in having either dogs or a wife.

Oh heavens, no, it's not a fashion thing.

The main reason young women are having fewer babies is that it is increasingly difficult to find a man who is marriage material.

Many are hugely entitled, lazy and demanding. Misogyny is through the roof - the fact that Andrew Tait has even one follower let alone the millions he does proves that.

Many young men now think porn is sex (which of course it is not) and think they have the right to stream filmed prostitution straight to their phones as much as they like and wank off anytime anywhere to anyone.

Many manpanderers pretend this is normal too because a cookie from a man might be worth something to them, and they imagine they will be the cool girl exception to the abuse rule.

Many young men think that anal rape, beating choking and other abuse that they try to call a kink is their right and women should be smooth and hairless and utterly obliging pornbots.

Gail Dynes has been talking about this for years and years.

It's not just babies, lots of young women are often opting out of dating men at all, because from every corner they are inundated by filth, misogyny, objectification and demands from man babies.

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/s8-episode-5-talking-about-porn-with-the-best-gale-dines-culture-reframed

Some men are trying to counter this tide, but unfortunately many of them are going for the "be a trad wife and do as you are told: approach.

So on the one side you have left wing men who think women's flesh can be purchased and peddled who are weirdly pro choice when it comes to prostitution and abortion but don't seem to give a fuck about women any other time, and on the other right wing men who think they should stay in the kitchen dropping sprogs until they drop dead of exhaustion.

And in the middle are dazed and confused young men who don't know what to do about any of it.

As Dynes says "The sexual script of pornography is that girls and women are disposable sex objects to be used and abused for men's pleasure. That is the key script of pornography. And the key script for boys is that they have no moral compass. They are. In fact, the image of boys and men in pornography is they are life support systems for erect penises. They are devoid of any capacity for intimacy, for connection, for empathy."

And as she points out this is a tragedy for both sexes.

There are still decent men out there - but where to find them?

And although it is fantastic that divorce is easily accessible and that women can work to support themselves, easy splitting up of marriages has given many men the only excuse they needed to ditch the kids and walk away.

It's now the absolute norm for people to have blended families - which don't work for the most part.

Most marriages will fail now, and while the kids are young because women refuse to put up men's shit.

And still, men as a whole seem to make no effort to stay faithful and treat their wives well, they want a whore in the bedroom who earns a good wage and is also a servant who will tolerate anything.

So, no, it's not a fashion trend.

The internet ruined men and men are ruining the world.

The reason women and girls are having less babies in the west - and they are indeed having less babies - is that the smart ones no longer want to risk their lives and their futures knowing that they will likely be abused, used, dumped and then replaced and left as single mothers.

Add to that the rising cost of housing, food and all the essentials and the fact that you cannot parent your children without being told you're wrong from every shouty corner of the world, and the current harmful societal trends among young people making it impossible to keep them truly safe and the amazing thing is that any young women at all are still having kids.

Glad I had my kids when I did. I would not be doing so now.

The internet has devastated social norms and behaviours and massively increased harmful, abusive and selfish behaviour in men - and also in women. The western world is now in large part peopled by narcissists, anxiety ridden shut ins and people who need trigger warnings to open a book and are deeply and genuinely offended by jokes.

I read a tweet that made me laugh the other day - because it's true. "Do married people watch Gen Z dating and feel like they caught the last chopper out of Nam?"

Well, I'm not Gen Z. But yup.

The industrial revolution changed motherhood it took work away from the home now its returned but we are living in an industrialised way still . AI and climate change will create future shifts but how will it affect parenting?
As you get older and life’s journey plays out its rather like Razors edge . The guy you dated who settled for another goes on to meet his love but she sadly dies in childbirth. He summited Everest she joined him but …was birthing a child ever seen as a summit because it is of sorts basically women’s bodies and lives take a massive toll it is a feat to be proud of.
I know of 3 women who have died written off as having mental health issues or cancer but knowing the less visible parts of their lives they were under immense pressure so on the outside married with wonderful Children , husband etc but behind closed doors caught in a trap of loving their children but having extremely selfish husbands and they put themselves on the fire . One she would have never have got custody he was so powerful they were based overseas and he was gaslighting her to drive her mad now her parents are in the same position the truth will never be visible he will never give them visiting rights of grandchildren so they go along with the narrative mental health problems to explain her suicide he was the driver of her madness and fear and he will be raising her children The other two were just locked in a cycle of misery of doing everything so their husbands can live life unchanged by parenting. These women literally paid with their lives by being trapped in a cycle where their needs weren’t expressed but in their epitaph memory its they were wonderful mothers , but I know how lacking in support , how frustrated these talented women were just trapped by circumstances yet continued on so as not to let their children down because you carry , feed , nourish that child in your body Its a huge self sacrifice from the start compared to the man’s role.

I feel as an older woman to reassure the women who feel sidelined by their choices you could have your life erased replaced Stepford wife zombie like to keep up outward appearances of being married and having raised children Success outwardly nobody dares show u behind the curtain and ask does it serve women to take on that motherload of having it all.

On a separate note I do find the amount of dogs everywhere very irritating as I’m allergic and now nowhere is safe. I’ve had dog hairs in cafe breakfasts too. And if you don’t fuss/pet them you’re seen as a psycho. But that’s another thread 😅

I also (probably wrongly) think that the ridiculous upsurge in the number of people having dogs these days that they treat as ‘fur babies’ (shudder) has had an impact. They get one dog then two, and are almost replacing the babies they might have had, with these dogs that they then have to bring everywhere with them (there was one in the bank yesterday and it wee’d on the floor and the couple weren’t even apologetic!), and fuss over as though they were human children. I love dogs and have them myself but my dogs are dogs and are certainly not equivalent to people.

Do you object to people who can’t have children finding comfort in their pets?