It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

Within my children's lifetime countries will be begging and pleading with young people to immigrate to their shores
@GratitudeGrump
I agree. It was pointed out in the interview with Paul Moreland (during the intelligence squared podcast that I linked to a few posts back) that countries with higher birth rates tend to be those with cultures incompatible with modern Western culture, so integrating will be difficult.
He proposed the ultimately we will need to find ways to allow young people to start families in their young adulthood without them having to miss out on educational and career opportunities.

To be fair, in previous decades there were such huge amounts of scaremongering about the planet being overcrowded and the dire consequences of that that I'm not surprised this idea has become embedded and that it's hard to imagine a world with too few people (or too few young people anyway).

What will be interesting (and possibly scary/divisive) will be how attitudes towards immigration will have to change. Within my children's lifetime countries will be begging and pleading with young people to immigrate to their shores, there will be huge competition over who gets to have all of the people who these days are considered surplus and unwanted. The less interesting and more scary question is how men will find ways to coerce women into having more babies -that's very much their style.

Many people seem unable to appreciate the significance of population composition!

Thank you for your reply. My argument still stands.

The population is currently growing but birth rates are so low in many countries that population will reach a certain point and then decline pretty soon. The problem with this is that there will be far more older people than younger, which places a huge burden on younger people.

I don’t think having children is unfashionable, it’s just that not having children is talked about in a more positive way. Of course that can tip over into being unpleasant about people who choose to have them - as a CF millennial (32, DH is 33) I’ve never liked the breeder/crotch fruit insults, but I think that’s a small minority who unfortunately like to make themselves heard. Online we are just trying to find a community of our own, where we can talk about our lives and our feelings with like minded people. Sometimes you just need to have people around who get it - it’s not a must but it is nice to speak to other childfree people.

DH and I have a flat and a cat - growing up it was always my dream to be living in a big city with a cat, and that’s what I’ve done! I do love her a lot and call her my baby in a joking way because I care for her a lot, but she is a cat, not a child. She doesn’t require a lot of input, but she keeps us company and makes us laugh. My best friends are having babies now, living in the suburbs, and while I’m chuffed for them it has only underlined how that’s not for me and DH. He had a vasectomy last year after a very unexpected pregnancy, and the relief that we won’t have to go through that again was huge.

DH didn’t really think about children until he met me and realised he didn’t think there was a choice and you ‘just have them’. My mum had me as a surprise baby - didn’t know until she was 3 months along, and I think about the life she could have lived a lot. She endured awful abuse as a child and then she had me at 26, quickly became a single parent, and her life became about me. While she did a good job in difficult circumstances I think if she had her turn again she would choose a different path. I’m very grateful that she has always told me to follow my gut instinct, which I have done.

Then I misread the tone. I apologise.

So? She presumably raised her dog from a puppy. Equally, you can also say you train children.

’Raised’ isn’t a term exclusive to children, and neither is ‘trained’ exclusive to pets.

I don't know how you got that from what I wrote. Things aren't binary or black and white. It can be true at the same time that 1) it's a good thing that people don't have children they don't want (this is such an incredibly obvious point I can't imagine how anyone would disagree with it). 2) Having a choice around having children is better than not having a choice (again, very obvious) and 3) making the choice to have children can be very difficult, particularly in a time when there is a strong societal message that you shouldn't have children until you're living in a big house in a desirable area or you shouldn't have children at all due to climate change/overpopulation.

Running out of people? Saw this on FB today

I absolutely adore my dog but she's not my Fur Baby (a term I detest) she's my dog and I know I might think she's the best thing since sliced bread but I understand that's not the same for other people which is why I raised her to not approach others when out and about and I don't take her to cafes and restaurants
@BeansOnToast32
Your dog is not your fur baby, yet you still speak about your dog in terms normally reserved for children. You say 'I raised her' rather than 'I trained her'.

I found this interesting:
Is the Planet Running Out of People? with Paul Morland. pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/C35921/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/NSR1127486655.mp3?updated=1724083194 .
The author and broadcaster Paul Morland is one of the UK’s leading thinkers on demographics – the study of population and its characteristics. Morland has been an associate research fellow at Birkbeck, University of London, and is a senior member at St Antony's College, Oxford. He last joined Intelligence Squared in 2022 and now returns to discuss his new book, No One Left. As that title suggests, Morland says the world is facing something of a crisis, with various nations facing population decline which could lead to consequences that range from labour shortages to ballooning debt. Joining him to discuss the issue is Eir Nolsøe, senior economics reporter at the Telegraph.

I really don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that people choose to have dogs not as child substitute but because they love dogs?

Growing up we've always had dogs, I'm from a massive family, loads of siblings, aunts/uncles and cousins just about every single household in my family has always had at least one dog. It's all I've known so me having a dog is absolutely nothing to do with me choosing not to have kids. I've known since I was a child that I didn't want children and I'm now mid 30's and still have absolutely no desire or urge to ever have a child.

I look at a newborn baby and feel indifferent I can appreciate if one is cute but I just don't feel anything, I never wonder what my potential child could look like or what my life could be like if I had one. I look at a puppy or any animal to be honest and feel the total opposite. I see a pup/cute animal and I melt.
It's probably hard for people that don't feel like me to understand just like I don't understand people who have these "urges" to have children.

Wanting to nurture an animal is not the same as nurturing a kid for me. I LOVE looking after my dog, I could spend every minute of the rest of my life with her and never get bored or want/need a break. I have all the time, and patience in the world for animals and I'd do absolutely anything for my pet because she brings me so much joy. I just don't feel the same way about children and never have. The only awful thing about owning a dog for me is the fact that we don't get to keep them forever.

I absolutely adore my dog but she's not my Fur Baby (a term I detest) she's my dog and I know I might think she's the best thing since sliced bread but I understand that's not the same for other people which is why I raised her to not approach others when out and about and I don't take her to cafes and restaurants.

That the freedom to choose, in a way that respects individual choice, and by expressing that choice in ways that aren’t likely to kill you, is a good thing. People shouldn’t have children they don’t want, yet they did because they had little opportunity not to.

The idea that people ‘are paralysed by choice’ implicitly presents this state of affairs as somehow preferable in comparison. It isn’t.

Exactly. Other animals do not experience a conscious desire for offspring, they are simply programmed to behave in a way that brings them about. Humans have developed reliable means of having sex which does not result in offspring, therefore choosing g to have a child is a conscious choice.

BTW I never said anything about a 'natural' desire to have children.

I agree. I'm not sure exactly what point you're making.

The desire to not have children, and rid yourself of unwanted pregnancy is also natural and a consequence of sex and conception. If it wasn’t, then it quite simply wouldn’t be something we did. All methods of preventing and ending unwanted pregnancy are born from our natural desires to do so. We’ve just got better at it.

Biologically a direct desire for children isn't really necessary as in the 'natural' run of things (as in, without contraception) all that's needed is fertility and a desire for piv sex. Children are a consequence. With contraception that whole mechanism is changed and you have to consciously choose to have children.

From a biological point of view, I’ve never experienced desire for children, not even when briefly pregnant.

Nature doesn’t have intent, it just is. It’s also incredibly complex, with ann incredibly complex interplay between environment and biology. There’s also a huge variation in how individuals express their own natures. It isn’t as simple as ‘everyone has the urge to procreate’ - demonstrably, we don’t.

And actually, all members of a species procreating is actually detrimental to that species.

You responded badly to it. There must be millions who respond fine (as in, they have no obvious problems) but who have other responses that are not immediately obvious, around how they feel or think. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just interesting that it's a question that doesn't seem to be asked very much.

I love cats and want to look after them. I grew up with cats. I do not have an urge to look after dogs or rabbits or birds. I absolutely loathe the idea of looking after children. I don't have an urge to look after any humans. I spent seven years as my mother's carer and am very glad that's over. Having friends is one thing, nurturing anyone other than my preferred species another.

In that it’s given people the freedom to choose, rather than resign themselves to biological inevitability and/or dangerous methods of preventing birth, yes. That women had a lot of children prior to contraception being available doesn’t mean they wanted a lot of children, or wouldn’t have chosen differently if they had the option to.

Beyond that, perhaps, perhaps not. I can say it hasn’t had an impact on mine, because I’ve never used hormonal contraception beyond the couple of weeks it took me to realise I responded badly to it.

Interesting. So maybe the basic desire has to be there first and then the hormone push the final decision? I can't describe the desire I had, it was like a madness ('baby fever'). I still get it from time to time now and I'm over 40 and definitely never having another baby!