It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

One thing I know from formerly being a primary teacher is that money is no guarantee of a good or happy childhood. Dysfunction is just as rife in wealthy families, it's just that they're often better at hiding it.

@GratitudeGrump @BlackShuck3
That’s what @Justthistime1234 was pointing out upthread when quoting a recent FT article. According to the article, the global population will start dropping after 2080, which is a good thing for the planet, but we’re going to have a rough time in the next 50-60 years when the imbalance between old and young people becomes significant.

I think my age group (50) and people now in their 30’s, for example, may have to make some tough decisions about life expectancy and accept that the current push to extend life as long as possible isn’t sustainable. I personally have no objections to euthanasia when I’m elderly and if life is difficult due to a lack of younger people, it might be a good option.

I know a very wealthy person in a six bedroom house with three children in private school who is basically a scammer. We all know people whose life choices are questionable.

I think a lot of people would agree with you. When it comes to my own children, if they wanted children I'd happily pick up the slack if needed - I don't expect them to survive on their own or miss out on things because they can't quite get to a particular level. I also know plenty of people who live on very low resources but no one is picking up the slack - they're just making it work and their children are doing very well.

Yup. I know a family who just had their third planned child while both long term on the dole living in a one bedroom flat in a shit hole.

I agree to an extent - I suppose it depends on what's considered 'unsuitable.' Being homeless would be unsuitable but to me living in a small flat would be fine. The idea that unless your life meets a particularly standard it's not 'good enough' really grates on me - as though people who live on council estates are automatically failing.

You're being a bit disingenuous here.

Nobody is saying you need a 4 bedroom detached house. I have said, repeatedly and clearly, that I have a personal belief people should try to maximise the resources they can for their children.

If you don't there is always someone picking up the slack, whether it is family, friends, or the state.

Maybe they think their lives are lovely. Maybe they don't know anything else.

I think unplanned is a bit different. I totally get that a lot of people have a surprise pregnancy and don’t want to have an abortion, they make it work. I was unplanned when my mum was 23, it was definitely not ideal - the country we were living in had just had a massive economic collapse - but she doesn’t regret it. Of course things can and do turn out OK in the end.

However, actively planning to have kids when you have really unsuitable circumstances doesn’t really sit right with me - it’s just all “I want” rather than “the child needs”.

I've not seen that at all. The mothers I know (not all of the fathers) care very deeply about the life they can provide for the child. They just don't think it's vital to have a detached four bedroom house and a huge income, because many people have lovely lives without those things.

This. So many people care more about becoming a parent than about the life they can provide for a child.

I understand your argument but the idea that someone has to provide a certain standard or having a family is out of the question doesn't sit right with me. My cousin for example had her first when she was 20, it was unplanned and everyone in my (very Catholic, Irish) family made her feel bad about it. Sixteen years later she's married to a lovely man in a beautiful house with a total of four children. Similarly my sister's SIL had her first when she was 16, causing huge upset. Her daughter is now a lovely 12 year old, SIL has a nice house and is children's nurse in a great relationship. Those were not ideal circumstances but I don't think anyone with any sense would look at them and say they did the wrong thing. Equally I've known people who've had the good job and the big house before having children who've ended up in dire circumstances due to various things (illness, gambling addiction, loss of job due to covid). I don't think there's a point of perfection that people can reach to guarantee everything is plain sailing and giving people the impression that they have to reach a very high standard before even considering children potentially cuts them off from what, to me, is a very normal life stage.

There is a big spread of lifestyles, absolutely, and also a very stark difference in lifestyles between my peer group who had kids young and those who waited. The ones that waited have objectively better lives.

I do think there are people who leave it too late, but this goes back to another of my points. Children are just not seen as something you have to do. People have more choices and opportunities.

So a lot of people are thinking "If I am going to do this I am going to do it right - or not at all", which is very black and white. But given having children is the single biggest choice you can make in life (or at least it should be), you can understand why people want to mitigate risk. You are right, life can change a lot. So I tried for kids when I got married, established my career, and got on the property ladder at 30. Rather than when I was 22, still at uni, working in a pub, and dating an "artist". Each to their own.

Yeah but I think the needs of the actual child (person!) trump anyone’s “desire” to have a child in shit circumstances. Is it more important for you to fulfil an urge, even if that means the kid living in a cramped flat, no holidays, rough school, no dad e.t.c….or to accept that it’s not fair for the kid to have a crappy life and struggle just because you had an urge?

Despite us having more comforts, life is harder and worse in a lot of ways today. I wouldn’t want to bring a child into it, especially if I couldn’t give them a comfortable life. Then again I’ve never had “the urge” so maybe it’s easy for me to say 🤷‍♀️

That's fair enough, though I'd argue there's a quite a wide spread of possibilities between a lovely house in a lovely area and a shit life in a bad area. Also, you can never assume that life will go as you planned - you might set everything up perfectly and still end up in difficult circumstances just because of how things work out.

What worries me is the thought that some people really want children but because they feel they don't tick a series of boxes they put it off (potentially until it's too late) or they don't do it at all. It seems like a very big thing to miss out on because of an idea of a standard that you have to adhere to.

I addressed all that in my first comment. It's all getting harder so we are having fewer children later.

I have a view that people have a personal responsibility to maximise the resources they can for their kids, which tends towards having children later.

As I said, someone is always picking up the slack for people who do not - whether that is through help from friends and family or the state.

I worked to have a nice life for me because I actually like myself, and I wouldn't want to have a kid in a situation where they would have a worse upbringing than I did. I also wanted to travel, work on my mental health, take career risks, and find the right partner because those would be good things for me as a person which in turn would be better for my child. I earn good money and have had enough experiences where I would not feel trapped by my circumstances - and hopefully can raise a fully-rounded human being.

You don't need all of that, of course, but I see my peer group that had children before earning decent money, or finding the right partner, and their lives just look shit. Fighting all the time, stuck with each other, living in too cramped flats in rougher schemes, being skint all the time, never going on holiday (or even a date!). And they are so bloody boring - because their kids are the only things they have. And I'm sure they would say that it's all worth it and "they made it work".

It's not the type of life I would want for myself or a child. I'd rather have the best life I can and then have kids as a much wanted and planned addition, rather than because they just happened.

Unfortunately most people can’t afford a lovely house in a lovely area. In my town that would be about 800k. I bought a house in an ex/council estate which I think is pretty nice but apparently on Mumsnet the area is “traditionally avoided” - that was 400k and took us 4 years to save the 80k deposit. We have good jobs and are good at saving. No idea who is buying the 750k 3 bed new build popping up all around us.

True. These transitions are always very hard though - people get an idea of what life should be like and find it hard to accept when things are different. I really wish people (including so-called experts) would stop peddling the trope that this is these generations are the first to have it 'worse' than their parents. It's such obvious bollocks - the generation who were young adults at the start of WW1 and parents of young adults at the start of WW2 very very definitely did not have it better than their parents!!

The modern notion of retirement is also brand new in historical terms - until a hundred years ago the idea of people still in reasonable health stopping work just because you reached an arbitrary number of years old, and then being supported by the state financially for the rest of their lives, was unprecedented.

In the space of a couple of generations the notion of being owed a decade of enjoying healthy and energetic leisure time before another decade of perhaps less healthy life perhaps with some care needs (both of which earlier ill health and early deaths means not everyone gets, but we have come to feel entitled to and that it's unfair if we or our loved ones don't get) has become normalised.

The idea of 50% of 18-21 year olds going to university instead of most of those going straight into work and paying income tax and NI, and the knock result of all those people believing they're overqualified for practical vocations, leading to too many 20 somethings expecting to do office jobs and a shortage of skilled people in trades and hands on professions is also brand new in the last 30 years.

A lot will have to change in the next 30-50 years.

(Again not meant to be provocative, just interested) is it your view that if someone can only afford an 'undesirable' area (whatever the definition of that may be) they shouldn't have children?

I would say so, yes. If you care about crime, education, and opportunities.

Not all of us are going to live in Cambridge or the like, of course, but if you have the opportunity to give your child a better life - why wouldn't you do that?

I bought a lovely house in a lovely area before having children. Because I want a nice life for me too.

'And parenting styles these days is 100% a factor. It's that my niece has cited as the reason that she has chosen not to have children. She doesn't want to fight the battle of attempting to raise a child in a world of gentle (non) parenting.'

This is one of the reasons I didn’t want children. I'm sure if DH and I had ended up having a child/children we would have done our very best to bring them up well, love them etc. But as part of that we would have had to facilitate friendships with other children and having seen the way many, many children behave, nope.

Raised/trained I really don't care, I've had her since she was 8 weeks, trained/taught everything she knows.

Why are you picking one word out of that entire post? She is a dog, I look after her to the best of my ability and made sure she turned out to be a brilliant companion and not a pest to others. She doesn't bark on the garden/walks, she's not reactive and she doesn't approach people/animals and I don't take her to cafes/restaurants.

What even is a fur baby? Why are you so rattled by the fact people care about their pets and look after them so well? Are we meant to have animals, feed them shit food, pat them on the head occasionally, leave them alone to do as they please and give them the absolute bare minimum amount of care so we aren't accused of treating them like "fur babies" shouldn't you be more concerned about the animals that are neglected?

If some people do choose to call their dog a fur baby then so what? Why does it bother you so much, if it makes them happy who cares? Why be so judgmental?

I could comment and judge when people have kids then moan about how exhausting/expensive they are but I don't because it's none of my business and their life choices don't affect me just like other people calling their pets fur babies and treating them well is non of your business and shouldn't bother you if you are happy and content with your life.

I suppose it's worth remembering that the situation we have now - widespread contraception, women with careers - is, in historical terms, very new. Once upon a time, no one who had a high paying, responsible job got pregnant (as they were all men!). Even in my mum's time women weren't expected to have big careers (she had to hide her engagement for fear she'd be fired). Ideally, we'll transition to system that takes for the granted the fact that a proportion of the population will get pregnant (and that the non-pregnant partner also needs to participate beyond two weeks of paltry leave) and it becomes a lot easier to integrate all aspects of life.

To you, perhaps. IMO it falls apart with the slightest examination of it, but to each their own.