It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

It depends on the lifestyle someone wishes to provide, not just for any potential children but for themselves. It isn’t just about what is needed, what is wanted matters as well.

Yes, many are perfectly happy raising children on a modest wage, but it’s equally valid for someone to decide that unless they have X amount in the bank, they’d rather not have children.

This!

Like I said in a previous comment, a teacher thought me expressing not wanting children worthy of telling my mum about it during a parent's evening. Like there must be something wrong with me.

Well said.

You see, this is the kind of attitude that I find rather odd. She's too young to know she doesn't want children, yet had she said she wanted to have them at some point, would you say she is too young to know if she will actually want them in the future?
It kind of goes to show how much it is still very much the default expectation that every little girl wants to be a mummy, and if she doesn't, she'll change her mind.

No one would argue that living in poverty is good for anyone. It's such a redundant argument it doesn't need to be made. The point I'm making is that it's totally possible to have a good life with enough money to cover all the basics but not enough to have luxuries. It's not necessary to have large amounts of money to raise a child well.

Nothing in life is a given except death and taxes.

Richer kids won't automatically have a great life but statistically they are far more likely to have a great life than a kid growing up in poverty. I had a choice of having a child when I was young and skint, or older and established. My life is better. My child's life will be better.

"Poorer children have worse cognitive, social-behavioural and health outcomes because they are poor, and not just because poverty is correlated with other household and parental characteristics, according to a new report from the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE)."

"Looking to explain why income matters, they found evidence in support of two central theories, one relating to parents’ ability to invest in goods and services that further child development, and the other relating to the stress and anxiety parents suffer caused by low income. There is particularly strong evidence that increasing income is likely to reduce maternal depression, which is known to be important for children’s outcomes."

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2017/07-July-2017/Income-directly-affects-childrens-outcomes#:~:text=Poorer%20children%20have%20worse%20cognitive,and%20Political%20Science%20(LSE).

@OutsideLookingOut Given that the birth rate is decreasing though, surely we need AI to replace the dwindling pool of young people?

I think it’s going to be the opposite, the smaller number of young people will have many options in life and AI will be needed to plug the gaps. Older people will definitely need AI as there won’t be many young people to provide services to them.

I also don't think being a parent should be a luxury only open to certain sectors of society.

I absolutely agree that poverty is an issue as I said. While I think it's better not to bring children into a situation with a serious lack of money I don't think a large amount of money is vital to give a child a good life. I grew up in circumstances that were not poor but were by no means comfortable, but I had a good childhood. It's obvious that if a child is starving they'll suffer but I don't think it's a given that if a child has a lot of money they'll automatically have a better life than a child with less money.

I think we need more of your perspective in this thread. My husband grew up in poverty too. It was a large factor in why we did not have kids earlier.

I agree I was so stressed as a child from poverty. It impacts your whole life going forward and most things are easier and enjoyable without that stress.

Artificial Intelligence (AI). I don't think this is a reason people are not having children (along with climate change) but it is something to be worried about. I wonder if we will need fewer people to do fewer jobs and everyone else will be fighting for scraps.

I disagree, having been incredibly skint and now doing fairly well.

Unfortunate events can happen to anyone. But it's a lot easier to deal with any stress when you aren't also dealing with the stress of being skint. I also think you underestimate just how much money can help.

Bad job, bad manager, job loss? I've got savings. Long term illness? I can release equity and downsize. If my care takes too long or I'm not happy with the treatment I have money to go private. Not happy with my marriage? I can go anytime with my own savings and find a job anywhere in the country, all while receiving top notch therapy. Death will come for every family but it doesn't always come with ash cash.

Even things like the fact I can book a holiday anytime and any emergency like the car breaking down or washing machine breaking would have 0 effect on the holiday. Because I have savings.

I've had to watch every penny and spent years putting things back on the shelf. Now I can spend £60 on wine and cheese on a whim.

My life is better in every measurable way now than it was when I was skint. And I would have hated to have the stress of a kid while dealing with the stress of unstable housing, shit jobs, or the leccy running out.

One of my mum's friends, who's 70, just lost her husband. They have no children. She has great friends, including my mum, but the fact of the matter is that she's alone in her grief - her own parents are dead and she has no siblings so she has no immediate family left whatsoever. Everyone is trying to support her, but if she had an adult child then they would be managing the situation together and that child (assuming no issues) would keep an ongoing eye on her. My mother is struggling to know how to help because, as a friend, it's just not the same sort of situation.

@GratitudeGrump Yes, at 50 I have loads of friends who are supporting their parents in various ways, even if they live in a different country, thanks to technology. Estrangement or abandonment is rare IME. By my age, the parenting role is often reversed!

Lots of people in my life care for the parents. My own parents are fit and healthy and in fact my mother cares for her mother, who's 93. We live closer to my PILs and FIL has dementia so I anticipate that MIL will move in with us once FIL goes to a nursing home. It won't be easy but that's part of being family in my view.

I know a few people who care for their mums. One who quit her job and claims benefits. The other who is self employed and can do her work around her mum's needs. Both single and without children at home.

I find the 'don't expect children to be there in your old age' argument really bizarre. In my world it's normal for people to see their elderly parents regularly. They might not live with them but they definitely watch out for them and help them with day to day life. Yes there are people who cut themselves off from their parents but IME that's much rarer. The much more typical situation is for parents and their grown up children to have a decent relationship that means something and it's perfectly normal to expect that to happen. Yes, you shouldn't rely on it or assume it's a given, but IME elderly people who have children are the ones who have ongoing support from people who are younger than they are and are invested in their welfare. Elderly people who don't have children generally have friends of their own age, who typically can't provide support in the same way.

When I was a kid (in Northern Ireland) I knew several families in which the Mums looked after their Mums or Mother in Laws more or less full-time (who had rooms in their houses).

(On one comical occasion I was the first up in the morning after an A levels party (parents away) and was accosted by the Granny who asked (told) me to make her a cup of tea).

It was possible because the Mums did not work outside the home, or worked part-time in fairly undemanding jobs.

I can't think of anyone like that now.

I'd add that my response to children living in poverty wouldn't be recommending that certain people don't have children.

Of course poverty is a massive problem. My point was that there are other issues children experience besides lack of money. Money might help you to deal with issues like an unhappy marriage, illness, bereavement, but it doesn't prevent them.

It’s not just the happy childhood though. It’s the worse life outcomes - poorer children get worse grades, worse jobs, live in worse areas, have lower life expectancy and are more likely to be obese. We don’t really have much social mobility. And before someone comes in with “my auntie Barbara was poor and she pulled herself up by the bootstraps and is now a multimillionaire CEO”, at a societal level it doesn’t work like that.

Not saying poor people shouldn’t have kids, just that financial stability/opportunities is something that should be considered as it will influence the rest of their lives.

As an educator you should know it's a lot more nuanced than that. And your anecdote is not backed up by data.

"Poverty is the most significant obstacle to happiness and well-being for children in England, report finds": https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/research/poverty-obstacle-children-england/

"The findings suggest that while the majority of children in England are relatively satisfied with their lives (54% reported often feeling extremely happy), children living in poverty score their well-being 10% lower on average than their more affluent peers."

Child poverty is a massive problem in our society that we need to fix precisely because the outcomes of children from poorer households are so dire compared to the most wealthy.

Anyone who decides whether to have kids based on what's in fashion / trends probably wouldn't be a good parent anyway 😂 so maybe it's for the best...

I don't think it's becoming 'unfashionable', but more a change in a combo of circumstances.

People are able to be more honest about not wanting kids, and changes in dating/relationships and less young marriage means even people who do want them aren't guaranteed to have found a partner to have them with... that seems different to say 50 years ago.

From a totally personal and biased point of view, what concerns me is that there are people out there who would like to have children, who are kind and good people that would make decent parents but who feel under pressure to prove themselves in some way before they consider themselves worthy to be parents. To those people I would say that parenting is hard and expensive but the vast majority of people make it work, usually without huge resources and you don't have to guarantee a perfect childhood for your child in order to qualify to be a parent. For one thing, where you start out isn't necessarily where you'll end up. DH and I had our first in a small shitty house. 13 years later we're in a nice four bed (albeit in an area that's fine but which snobs consider 'undesirable'). I think I'm doing a pretty good job. I'm so glad I had children. For me (and I emphasise for me, not necessarily for anyone else) they make my life more interesting and fun and I can't imagine being without them.

Having children isn't for everyone. But if you are considering it, don't let voices telling you you have to be a certain way make the decision for you.