It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

That was my hope. I think fewer children means more options from them but I'm beginning to doubt even that. Unless most young people are desiring to work in care, the few jobs will be those actively working on AI and AI doing all the interesting work humans used to do.

I can't remember if it was in the podcast only from 01:39;11 I thought raised some interesting points.

I sensed the stress from my parents and it made my childhood worse. They were young and worried about money and they couldn't hide it (even when they did try). It was not having enough nutritious food (children from some communities tend to be shorter, stunted). It was not being able to ask for any extracurriculars and feeling too guilty about even thinking of it, being guilted out of wanting or continuing anything with money. Being afraid to invite anyone home - not just because of the house but your parents are time and money poor and would rather rest and so much more.

I also live in an area where people tend to have children fairly young and don't have any truck with how they should currently be parenting. My sling wearing, breast feeding ways were seen as quite eccentric a decade ago round here.

I think it's having fewer kids and more access to information. It used to be about keeping your kids alive and making sure they didn't show you up in public. You also needed to instil a good work ethic for when they left school at 15 (my parents' gen).

Then for my gen, it remained the same. Except I was allowed to stay on top do a levels. Bit of a battle to go to uni ('but what's the point? Go and get a job in the council. )

Then when I had mine, I was so used to doing my research for everything, it was natural to research how to parent- with a big dose of my own upbringing. I don't live my life in thrall to them. Yes, the do activities, but only if it fits around work. My ultimate aim is to bring up kids who are useful members of society. Anything else is a bonus.

See what I'm wondering is it the fact that we have fewer kids that has led to these more demanding standards for baby care and parenting or is it the increasingly demanding standards that have been putting people off having kids or having bigger families?

Brilliant comment.

What is wrong with people loving their pets, and treating them well?

One of my friends got a dog not long after I had my first child. She, in all seriousness, said 'Now that I have DDog, I think I understand what having a child is like. I adore him and worry about him...blah, blah, blah.' I couldn't resist reminding her of it a few years later when she had her first child. She was very embarrassed. I just found it funny.

HV saying that you can't leave a baby on its own even to go to the loo.

Ridiculous but believable

Not just young couples.

I thought of something else today when I was reading the thread about the HV saying that you can't leave a baby on its own even to go to the loo.

It made me think, who'd have a child if they know they are constantly going to be judged and told that everything they do is wrong for the baby, from pregnancy to childbirth to feeding to sleeping arrangements and beyond!

I think the most material point about wealth/poverty isn’t so much your current material wealth it’s your aspirations for yourself and your children.

Nor everyone can provide a comfortable life for their children from day one. Not having material wealth absolutely should not disbar anyone from having children.

But I do think not having any ambition to better yourself or the opportunity for your children at all makes it much harder for those children to achieve their potential.

Not only because of the things they miss out on but as a result of the paucity of ambition for them and lack of positive role models.

So many people start having children in materially difficult circumstances. But good parents want to improve their children’s lives. Whether they achieve that or not is down often to circumstances beyond their control. But they try. And that in itself sends a powerful message about ambition and self reliance.

I do think people who no financial security or support and no wherewithal or ambition to change their circumstances are probably not in the best place to become parents. People who only want to be parents and don’t give any thought to hoe their children are to be supported, don’t usually make great parents.

I didn't go abroad until I was almost 30, I'm 39 now. It wasn't much of a hardship. I'm still pretty happy to have been born!

For a lot of families any sort of holiday is a luxury - abroad or in the UK.

I said if you thought it. You don't. Fair enough.

For me holidays abroad are really important and enjoyable - they’ve always been a staple in my life. I would not want a child of mine (if I had one) to not be able experience them. But yes, everyone’s views of staples/luxuries are very different.

A lot of foreign travel is very cheap - cheaper than UK holidays, cheaper than running a car or doing sport to a high level. So I’m not sure I would call them luxury any more than a child playing high-level sport is a luxury, with the kit and club and travel costs. Or having a car.

You do a lot of making up stuff and putting words in people's mouths don't you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's you being defensive rather than a reading comprehension issue.

Nobody has said anyone shouldn't have children if they cannot afford a holiday. Nobody.

What I have said is that people have different lifestyle expectations and do not want to compromise on that - because it would be compromising their own quality of life and the quality of the lives of their children.

You don't think holidays are important, that's fine. I personally did not have kids until I could afford the best possible lifestyle, experiences, and opportunities. That's also fine.

I don't have it backwards, I'm just talking about a different thing. You're saying some people delay having kids or don't have them at all because they want a specific lifestyle and can't achieve that. I get it. I'm saying I worry about people who want kids feeling they shouldn't have them because the message they're getting is that they must provide a specific lifestyle or they'll be bad parents. They're two different situations.

It's not about feeling like a failure without a specific salary, it's about getting to the salary level where they can afford the type of lifestyle they want to raise their kids in. Many do more with less, and many just don't want to have to. You've got it slightly backwards.

I think most people would agree holidays abroad are a luxury - a very expensive one at that. You feel they're very important. I don't - I can afford holidays abroad but don't go on them as I don't like travelling very much. I have to admit that if you thought someone shouldn't have children because they can't afford holidays abroad I would find that attitude very odd indeed.

"a good life", "basics", and "luxuries" look different to different people.

Some people think holidays abroad are a luxury, for example. I think they are important to developing fully rounded people with interests and experiences.

it’s becoming increasingly “unfashionable” to have kids, even looked down upon.

Really? I must remember that when someone else puts me down for not having kids. I think it is more likely that people are more aware that not having kids is a valid choice. I have certainly met many many parents who should never have had children - and their children who need years of therapy and support for the damage this caused. Would have been better if some people had made this choice.

I'd add that no one should assume that when they do have enough money in the bank that children will still be a possibility. My DH's SIL has wanted children since she turned 30 but waited as she wanted to have a lecturing position first, which took a lot longer than she expected. She started trying at 36 and two years on she's having investigations for infertility. It's not looking good. I really hope it works for her. If she'd started at 30 her odd would likely have been better.

I agree, the issue arises when someone does want children but feels they shouldn't because the message they've been given is that without a large salary they will be a failure.

Funnily enough the only thing I wanted when I was a teenager was to have kids but I never spoke about it to anyone. I was very academic and did well at school so the expectation was that I'd have a big stellar career so I couldn't really admit that I didn't give a shit about careers, the only thing I wanted was babies.