It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

It's not as cut and dried as just seeing the positives or negatives of a particular lifestyle though is it? Ultimately making a decision about being child-free is about self-knowledge.

I can be the first to reel off the list of negatives re: what parenting looks like from the outside. Every time I visit parent friends I come away thanking a God I don't even believe in that that's not my life. Not just the stress and the frazzle but the way every single decision of every single day has to be made with non-adults in mind. It looks like you get all your agency over yourself ripped away.

But I also see that parenting makes my friends incredibly happy! They may be stressed at times but they're not miserable and sometimes their face lights up totally involuntarily when talking about their kids and it's wonderful to see. But at the same time I know that it's not for me. I also have a friend whose face lights up when she talks about wild swimming at 6am in the winter and that too is not for me. My face probably lights up when I talk about tasting menus or new music and I'm sure some of my friends wouldn't get it to the extent that I do.

FWIW I don't know anyone who goes OTT with "fur baby" talk, except in an obviously tongue-in-cheek way, but I know a lot of people - child-free people, even - whose faces lights up like that when they talk about their animals. I couldn't really imagine anything other than being happy for them.

I don't really see why anyone needs to do any cod-psychology on themselves or their acquaintances to justify why you want no children, one child, many children or just some cats. I didn't have a great childhood so yes, it makes sense that I don't think of childhood in general as something to treasure or something I want any part of as an adult. My deepest childhood longing was to be an adult, because that meant freedom, and freedom is the one thing I'll hold on to as much as I can - it gives me greater joy than any amount of love, if I'm honest. And possibly because of my suboptimal childhood, I've learned to prioritise pleasure as an adult - I'm a hedonist in a fundamental sense in that I think one's life should be geared towards maximum ease and enjoyment. None of that makes me damaged or selfish, though.

To be clear, I'm totally on board with people talking about the positives of their child free life - I have a lot of child free friends and I love hearing about what they're doing. To repeat what I actually said, I am sad and baffled when people who don't have children list the negatives of having children. If I did the same thing - listed the negatives of not having children - I'm sure child free people would be similarly not happy.

I'm talking about people who don't have children listing the negatives of having children.
How is that 'celebrating the freedoms of not having children'???

Hear hear!

Irresponsible dog ownership is by no means confined to those without children.

@GratitudeGrump

I understand that you haven’t explicitly said people are an aberration but you have said you are “sad and baffled” when people list the negatives. People who have and want children very often see having children as the natural, healthy default. The clear implication is that not wanting them is regrettable and evidence that all is not entirely well.

I think what some people find irritating (and for the record I have a child and I wanted her), is the assumption that it’s fine to lobby the child free on the benefits of having children but that people who celebrate the freedoms of not having children should shut up about it because it’s “negative”.

It’s one rule for one set of people and another for the other.

They don't treat them well. I'm seeing more and more undisciplined dogs because there seems to be a gentle- dog- ownership trend and they won't take leadership over them. They have often made their dogs neurotic, unable to be left alone and if anything happens, they won't be able to be rehomed. The amount of them who got dachhounds, who now rule the household and are aggressive because they need strong ownership.
I know quite a few couples approaching 30 who just can't financially think about children, but want them.

I had quite a negative view of what parenting would be like before we even decided to conceive, but on balance, I decided that I'd probably regret it more if I didn't have a go. I didn't know anyone with kids; was first in my friendship group to do it, but I was fairly settled in work and wanted to try something new. Probably would have been cheaper to take up a new hobby.

I have been guilty on focusing primarily on the negatives- especially in the early years- but no one comes on and talks about the funny bits or the warm bits. Or how they become self sufficient quicker than you think.... leaving you plenty of time to do what you want. I will probably see mine (early teens) around tea time. Possibly a fleeting glimpse at lunch time, when they feed themselves.

I find this perspective (which is absolutely endemic) quite irritating. Some people really genuinely don’t want kids and it’s not necessarily because of psychological damage or social failure. Why do some people have a hard time accepting this?

I find this perspective (which is absolutely endemic) quite irritating. Some people really genuinely don’t want kids and it’s not necessarily because of psychological damage or social failure. Why do some people have a hard time accepting this?

I think people who are genuinely happy with the choices they’ve made are genuinely happy for those who’ve made different ones and are happy with them.

I had my ds at 35 and I'm almost 40 pregnant with my second. It has definitely changed life but I haven't lost who I am, still have a decent job. I've always been able to look after myself still. Yes childcare is expensive but it's temporary. It's not all doom and gloom. Coming from someone who's always been quite "selfish". It's gave life another dimension

This post sums it up beautifully for me. I don't have kids and neither do my three best female friends. Of the four of us I'm the only one with a traumatic childhood: none of us are high-fliers but we all like our jobs, three of us are in stable loving relationships of several decades' duration, the fourth is single by choice.

What we have in common is that we have had the freedom to make our own choices about whether to have children and none of us have felt the urge to. For us, feeling the urge to have children is a bit like believing in god: you either feel it or you don't.

I said nothing about being let down so I don't know where you got that from. I also said nothing about being an aberration from the norm.

I'm saying I see the positives of parenting so I find it hard when someone just points out all the negatives. Nothing more than that. It's purely a personal point of view and no comment on anyone's psychological damage or social failure - you're projecting those things yourself.

And there’s no standard experience of childfree life either, despite many people with kids thinking it’s one of endless superficial frivolity and empty pleasure seeking and the prospect of a bleak lonely old age.

@GratitudeGrump

Given that viewpoint I admit it makes me sad and sort of baffled when people just list the superficial negatives

That’s the whole point though surely? The ability to choose based on what you want rather than what society wants for you?

You really wanted kids. Great. Some people really don’t. You seem to be suggesting that can only be because something has gone wrong in their life, that they have somehow been “let down”. In essence you are implying that everyone instinctively wants children and anyone who doesn’t want them is an aberration from the norm.

I find this perspective (which is absolutely endemic) quite irritating. Some people really genuinely don’t want kids and it’s not necessarily because of psychological damage or social failure. Why do some people have a hard time accepting this?

That’s the problem, isn’t it, with any major life decision which can’t be ‘pre-viewed’ or rehearsed, when you have to go on what you see around you and what other people say about it?

I have no difficulty whatsoever understanding why someone chooses to be childfree (I was planning to stay CF myself, had my one child at 40, and lots of my friends don’t have children by choice so I’m still in touch very much with what a childfree life looks like), but also, I don’t recognise the vast majority of things I read on here about parenthood. My life hasn’t changed a whole lot since having DS — he’s a delightful addition. Yes, he can definitely be a stroppy, emotional teenager, but that’s mildly tiresome but developmentally normal, and he’s also funny and clever and interesting. . I still work FT in a job I love, I’ve never gone on a shit holiday, was not cast into gloom and paranoia by the school run, and I get plenty of alone time ordinarily and often go away by myself. (This is probably helped by not having had a child with an asshole.) I think the odd (but probably predictable) thing about parenthood is that it’s largely individual to the person, and that person’s individual child, who is their own person. There’s no ‘standard’ experience of ‘parenting’.

True! I'm thinking of friends who never held a baby - the prospect of the first baby you look after being your own must be utterly terrifying.

It's a lot easier to put the negatives into words, "I'm shattered because I'm not sleeping at night" "I'm stressed from the constant demands of their bloody school" than the positives which are more personal I suppose.

There’s also lots of people that grew up in big families and say they’ve “done their time” and don’t want any kids themselves. Your attitude is basically “if people were exposed to kids more, they would want them”. Lots of us are exposed to them and that’s what makes us not want them!

I definitely think lack of experience plays a part. Looking at it from the outside, parenting does seem terrible - exhausting, hard work, thankless - I think potentially you can only really see the positives from the inside? I was like a third parent to my sister and I often think of her as my child (and she treats me a lot like a mum - too much at times!) so I sort of had a very small dry run in advance and knew the kind of connection that was possible. I was desperate to have my own children, it was the only thing I wanted. Given that viewpoint I admit it makes me sad and sort of baffled when people just list the superficial negatives. But then I am aware not everyone feels the way I do - I'm just totally biased.

Yes - I had a brother 10 years younger - and I absolutely hated it. I hated the noise, being woken up at 7 every day, spending weekends at petting zoos and funfairs, watching CBeebies. I just wanted to be alone and missed being an only child. Everyone is different. I got 0 joy out of having a small sibling, I just found him incredibly annoying, spoilt and bratty. That whole experience is what made me childfree and I’ve never really wavered since. We actually get on really well now but we are both adults!

I do enjoy spending time with other family member’s children as an adult, but once they are a bit older, and if they’re well behaved.

@Catsmere

It all boils down to telling women we should really get back to having children and having no life outside that.

I think there’s an element of truth in this. Not so much in relation to children vs pets, more in relation to children vs other sources of interest and self actualisation.

I do think a fairly substantial group of people think that children are tye only proper, authentic and wholesome direction for a woman’s efforts. They may not think this consciously but it’s very evident in their focus.

I have lost count of the conversations I have had with people where they will ask how I am and I will talk about some aspect of my life (my job, hobbies or social life) and they will immediately bulldoze into asking about my daughter as if the rest is window dressing.

I think that a lot of the attitudes on this thread follow this logic: people find it so self evident that children are a blessing and a goal for everyone that they assume any woman who doesn’t want them is warped or damaged in some way or has been “let down by society”, either due to mistreatment by men, lack of money or some other defect.

In fact the way I see it is totally different: having children was in the past a more or less inevitable trajectory for a woman’s life. Contraception, improved career opportunities and better education mean that is no longer automatically the case. Women are therefore able to revert to their genuine wishes with respect to children and have them or not have them as they see fit rather than having them because it was expected of you and something everyone did.

I see this as an unequivocal positive to be honest. There are large amounts of data that show positive links between female independence and female reproductive control and healthier socities.

Trying to spin female reproductive autonomy as “sad” in some way is wildly missing the mark.

I think that's a really interesting point about experiencing that for yourself with other children before having your own. A lot of us aren't from big families with lots of kids and don't spend much time around them growing up.

For me when I had kids it was like stepping into the twilight zone and everything was completely different. I can imagine for someone very involved with family children that it would be more like an extension of your current family life.

I guess some of us without much experience of kids will do it for biological urge reasons anyway but I wonder if this sense of the unknown does make it seem a much scarier proposition.

And yes, same here @KimberleyClark - it's not the loving the child part that I think I would struggle with - it's everything else!

You can't imagine loving a child, taking joy in their development? Your friends sound like quite a miserable bunch!

Actually, friends aren't a "miserable bunch" at all - they're wonderful, interesting people who find parenting a lot harder than they ever imagined they would.

And no, I can't imagine being a parent and dedicating my life to another human in that respect. I'll be the first to admit I'm selfish and would rather prioritise myself though!

I can imagine loving a child, but I’m also constantly reading posts on here from parents who feel. “touched out”,fantasise about being alone,having shit holidays, cliquey mums at the school gate, stroppy entitled teens and adult children who treat them like shit.

I’m not childless by choice, at least not originally, and I realise there are some positives I’ve missed out on, but the older I get the happier I am to have missed out on the negatives.