It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

For anyone else that likes research-led learning:

Maternal Education, Changing Family Circumstances, and Children's Skill Development in the United States and UK

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5857959/

The key factors in raising successful children are; high maternal education, steady and high income, stable family structures especially with both parents, good maternal mental health, regular and consistent exposure to new and positive experiences.

I didn’t have kids because 1. we’re over populated, 2. Many men are shit and I didn’t want to end up a single mum or reliant on a man, and 3. I was abused myself as a child so I don’t think I’d make a great mother. ‘Fashion’ has nothing to do with it and it’s fairly insulting to suggest women are making such a huge choice based on a ‘trend’.

Maybe in certain areas. Like parts of London.

Definitely not in my area. In fact I felt like a freak of nature when I couldn't have children.

No I answered the question, as we're supposed to do. You know, like you did. The first lot of responders didn't wait around for a thread to appear, they answered the question with their thoughts, as they were asked them.

As in when there's more and not less. There are a lot of people outside the bubble of mumsnetter's awareness that exist believe it or not.

Having a child is definitely hard. But surely you can see the positive side too?

As someone that doesn't want kids I cannot see a single positive which is precisely why I don't want them.

You can't imagine loving a child, taking joy in their development?

If I gave birth I might love the child but ultimately I think I'd resent it more because I didn't want one.

Were there many younger children in your life growing up? I had a lot of younger cousins and my sister is seven years younger than I am so I had a sort of preview into what it's like to experience the development of another person. I couldn't wait to experience it with my own children. For me (aware not everyone is bothered!) it's one of the most thrilling and interesting things to see someone go from being a tiny helpless newborn into a person with thoughts and opinions who can walk and talk. It's genuinely amazing. The fact that that person's my child makes it even more amazing. I do get the horses for courses argument - my friend's a doctor and thinks it's the best thing ever. I couldn't imagine anything worse.

I'm the eldest of 6 and have lots of younger cousins so I know exactly what it takes to raise a child which is why I don't want one.

Given that viewpoint I admit it makes me sad and sort of baffled when people just list the superficial negatives.

This is patronising and I've heard it all my life! I've always known I didn't want kids and I'd get the "you'll feel differently when you're older speech" I don't. I have absolutely no desire or urge nothing. The negatives aren't superficial.
If you know you won't enjoy night feeds, nappies, school runs, being screamed at, driving to activities, pretending to be interested when they put on a show for you then why would I have a child.
Don't feel sad for me, I have a fantastic free life and I can do whatever I want when I want.

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

For someone that doesn't want a child the thought of having one is awful just like the thought of not having one is awful for the people that want them. My child free life is fantastic because I chose it.

I suppose I was interested in the idea that some people genuinely think parenting is just totally terrible and can't imagine any positives, as it seems odd to me. If I said I can't imagine any positives to being child free I think I'd have my arse handed to me!

Again not a single positive why would I have a child I don't want just because there might be a small positive at some point in raising it that I can't think of before I commit to having it? Do you think it's fair on the child to have parents that didn't want it in the first place, potentially damage it for life with your resentment then no doubt end up low contact as an adult because you were a shit parent?

I've seen previous threads on here were child free are called selfish because apparently all we care about is extra money and extra sleep when really we are selfless because I can't thing of anything more selfish than raising a child you know in your heart you don't want just because it's the normal thing to do.

edit to make quotes bold

Thanks for good discussion - I have to get back to doing other things!

Why do you think that?

I couldn't care less if someone hated the idea of being child-free and thought it was awful.

Why are you sad other people are living their lives how they want?

It’s like when I was in a club, dancing, having a great time and someone asked me what drugs I was on. I said none, they kept going on at me at how amazing it was and how much I was missing out and how I’d be having an even better time if I was on them.

I was never interested but a year later the FOMO got to me. I tried it twice…guess what, it was crap, I enjoyed the music and overall experience much less than usual! Because….I know myself better than other people know me. I’m not them. I could bang on about skiing is amazing, but one of my friends hates it. That doesn’t personally upset me!

I think the problem is that you’re expecting people who chose differently to you to validate your choice.

The positives you’ve identified are subjective positives. They wouldn’t be positives for people who’ve chosen not to have them, or they’d have made a different choice. You want us to tell you that there are objective positives which apply to all women, and that those who’ve chosen not to partake must have some interesting and personal reason for not seizing those positives.

In reality, many of us do not see any positives for us in having kids. And if you said that you saw no positives for you in remaining childfree, I don’t believe you’d be criticised for that. I fully accept that my choice is subjectively great, not objectively great. And I don’t need it validated by people who presumably chose differently because they saw the subjective positives in a life as a parent.

Why are you ‘sad’? I don’t understand why this makes you personally unhappy at all.

I suppose I was interested in the idea that some people genuinely think parenting is just totally terrible and can't imagine any positives, as it seems odd to me. If I said I can't imagine any positives to being child free I think I'd have my arse handed to me!

@GratitudeGrump

I don't agree with using the word 'fashion' as I think it's flippant and judgemental but I do think the low birth rate is in some way due to how our society is at the moment - people's choices are being influenced, not by fashion, but by societal norms and attitudes as well as the things going on in the world around us.

I think it’s purely down to increased choice.

Until very recently (basically until contraception, the protections that were afforded to women at work that meant they didn’t automatically lose their jobs when they became pregnant and other developments came around), there was no choice whatsoever.

Women, apart from a tiny handful of very wealthy women or women who were in very specific roles such as religious ones, had to become mothers if biologically possible.

So it’s obvious to me that if women now have some agency over their reproductive rights some are going to choose not to reproduce. It would be be far more surprising if all women, now they can choose not to have kids, continued to have them at the same rates as they did in the 1800.

This stuff about kids being expensive and men being unreliable may have some impact at the margins but by far the biggest factor in people having fewer children is simply that we no longer have to!

I don’t need anyone else to see the positives of a life they don’t want, it’s my life and as long as I’m happy what anyone else thinks is irrelevant

This is really well put.

Another example is pet ownership - I love dogs and own a dog, but lots of people hate the idea of it and think it sounds awful - I don't feel the need to tell them about all the positives and say "well, have you really thought about it?"

It just comes across as incredibly condescending and arrogant imo.

I don't even think the finding aspects of parenting potential awful is unique to childfree people. Personally I wouldn't want a six children or to have another baby once mine are teenagers because to me those things do sound awful.

The lifestyle thing is tricky. In general I think people really struggle with the idea of giving their children a lower standard of living than they themselves had and that's the case whatever that standard was. We've had generations that have had to accept lower standards of living before but maybe it's the combination of that and ready access to contraception that's different.

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

Do you criticise parents for talking like this? Because in my experience, they’re the ones going around saying it’s awful. Childfree people I know say that it just looks negative and tiresome, but the only people who’ve told me that having kids is awful are parents.

I love my life - it’s exactly as I planned and wanted it. Others would hate it and see no positives to it. That’s fine! I don’t need anyone else to see the positives of a life they don’t want, it’s my life and as long as I’m happy what anyone else thinks is irrelevant. Vive la différence!

Some of the people saying that have that opinion because of their own experience of deprivation in childhood.

Equally, others have stated their unwillingness to have children unless they can provide a certain lifestyle, and have been told that children don’t ’need’ the things they want to provide - which invites a defensive response. No, children may not need to those things, but it isn’t wrong for someone to want to be able to have and provide them. For you, children may be worth it no matter what and not having them would have led to painful regret, but that isn’t going to be the same for everyone. There will be those that may have wanted children had the circumstances been different, but don’t regret not having them because they weren’t.

Where do you live?

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

I guess I don't understand why someone saying "I think having children sounds awful" provokes such a strong reaction in you.

Having children sounds (to me) like hell, but other people clearly love it - so who am I to judge? I don't sit there and go "well, can you not see the positives of being child free" because whether they can or can't is totally irrelevant to their decision, surely?

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

My main concern really was the attitude expressed earlier in the thread that people shouldn't have children (even if they want to) unless they can provide a certain high standard of living. I do think that has an influence on people's decisions, sometimes in a very negative way. There is an attitude that only a certain type of childhood is acceptable which strikes me as short-sighted and very limiting.

If you have a good family who support each other because they want to, than yes.

However, many family members only "support" each other out of sense of obligation. And then it goes together with a good side of resentment and guilt-tripping. That kind of "support" does more harm than good and it's anything but loving.

That's not what happened on this thread. Someone listed the negatives and I asked if they could also see the positives. Context is important.

Yes, I know - I was the one who listed to negatives 😂

I guess I just don't understand why some parents can't seem to accept that other people just aren't interested in having children, no matter how many positives there might be.

I can totally understand why other people might want kids but for me, no amount of positives would be worth losing my freedom. I love the fact that I can take time off whenever I like, that I can sleep until midday on my days off and that I can spend my days however I choose.

Kids marriage and pets tie you down no thank you.

I think when you choose not to do something the focus is on ‘why not’ because that’s just the nature of the question and it tends to the negative. And yes, there is an element of justification because if I listed positives of children to demonstrate that yes, I am aware they exist, people might say “but you’re depriving yourself of those things” and in response you go to the negative again. Cognitively our brains prioritise negative information, it’s part of risk assessment.

In terms of positive reasons not to have children, DH and I would like the freedom to emigrate for work - future career moves for both of us might be in Canada or the EU, and if that happens we can tie up things here and go.

We collect a lot of things - vintage video game systems, figurines, VHS tapes - and our spare room is like a mini museum. We love going for a rummage in antique shops and conventions. DH spends his spare time making video games (which I project manage) and we would like to start an independent studio one day if things go well.

We love trying out new games and crafts together, recently got into linocut and I’m learning to make clothes as well as getting into weightlifting. DH got me into hiking - we’re not pros but we have had amazing walks all around the Peaks and Lake District. We have all the time we need to try new things, get better at what we love doing, and spending time together while we do it. We have a very even division of labour and that allows us to value and prioritise our relationship in our relaxation time.

No, because people of the "You don't have kids!!?? 😱" brigade won't believe that any woman doesn't like or want children and never shut up about it.