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To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

722 replies

Noras · 18/08/2024 17:41

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

OP posts:
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noctilucentcloud · 18/08/2024 21:09

Dunnoburt · 18/08/2024 20:52

Yanbu OP.......I can't think how much I'm damaging my 8yo every time we go to see "Nanny"......(80, dementia)......it's evil xx

If you think it's having a negative affect on your son, then please don't take him any more. Maybe ask if he wants to draw her a picture or write her a card or pick her out some flowers or something instead.

RickyGervaislovesdogs · 18/08/2024 21:03

Not everyone gets a hospice. Not everyone gets a lovely death. I’d rather decide now, whilst I’m fit, healthy and sound of mind. There’s the odd, almost romanticised anecdote of a beautiful death- I’ve never experienced it. My father was sent home to die and it was excruciating. I’m glad your parents had a ‘good death’. But equally I’ve known people enter a hospice and beg to die- a good death isn’t guaranteed, not all pain can be managed.

I hope euthanasia is an option in the U.K. soon, I’ll gladly sign up. Better a day too soon, than too late. What is the point of starving to death, losing your mind, screaming, with no control over your bodily functions- what is the point, an extra few days or weeks of torture.

Mum2Fergus · 18/08/2024 21:00

simplemoments · 18/08/2024 20:56

I have seen alot of death recently and am quite vocal that I want to go over the Rainbow Bridge even with a bit of a nudge when the time comes. Some people want to hold on for ever , for me nah ,not if I have already gone mentality or am in living hell .

Me too. First sign of decline or impacted quality of life I'll be outta here.

Mum2Fergus · 18/08/2024 20:59

Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia? 100% yes. Similarly I nursed both my parents until they passed....I will never put my son through that.

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:58

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:54

And my reply a few pages back to that question was, it is something that would need to be legislated for and staff trained to do it. If sedation was required just the same as if i was becoming aggressive due to mental health issues, prior to the last jag, I could accept that as part of my 'living will' or whatever you wish to call it.

What type of staff do you feel would be suited to this role?

simplemoments · 18/08/2024 20:56

I have seen alot of death recently and am quite vocal that I want to go over the Rainbow Bridge even with a bit of a nudge when the time comes. Some people want to hold on for ever , for me nah ,not if I have already gone mentality or am in living hell .

Monkeyrules · 18/08/2024 20:56

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:54

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:47

And who would you expect to carry out your wishes if you were resisting sedation/euthanasia? Your family? Nurses or doctors? Care assistants? Specialist euthanasia teams?

And my reply a few pages back to that question was, it is something that would need to be legislated for and staff trained to do it. If sedation was required just the same as if i was becoming aggressive due to mental health issues, prior to the last jag, I could accept that as part of my 'living will' or whatever you wish to call it.

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:53

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

It would be significantly cheaper to recruit and train teams to administer euthanasia drugs than it would be to invest in palliative and end of care care.

Dunnoburt · 18/08/2024 20:52

Yanbu OP.......I can't think how much I'm damaging my 8yo every time we go to see "Nanny"......(80, dementia)......it's evil xx

Monkeyrules · 18/08/2024 20:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:47

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:45

The same question was put to me a few pages back. My personal feelings are that my wishes when I did have capacity should be respected.

And who would you expect to carry out your wishes if you were resisting sedation/euthanasia? Your family? Nurses or doctors? Care assistants? Specialist euthanasia teams?

Noras · 18/08/2024 20:47

I think we are all so well informed that were we to see a GP and they tell us bad news eg you have stage 4 cancer or you have the early stages of mixed dementia and you know what the future holds. It’s petrifying.

We then think of our families. I would not want my DD to be a carer ever again that’s for sure.

Also in my case I was petrified when I realised that my mother’s dementia was partly frontal temporal lobe hence my current reflections. …so that’s out there for you GPs to understand my thought processes and no I care not a fig about saving the state money I just want the state to give me rights and in my head I’m bargaining with the state. Give me the right …it saves you money. Coupled with that my brother’s illness for for me this is a real debate,

I have also been looking up treatment for dementia but nothing much for VD.

And actually to be frank when someone says I have a disability ( not life or intellect threatening) and don’t want euthanasia to be legalised I feel not anger but frustration as I’m thinking that ok but equally I don’t want my mothers fate - she had dementia from when I was in my 20’s. Many of the years were awful as she cried infornt of mirrors and was convinced I was her sister.

So that’s my honest thoughts.

OP posts:
Uol2022 · 18/08/2024 20:46

You regret feeding your mum and regret being careful with morphine for your dad, the implication being that you now feel should have acted in ways that would hasten their deaths. Without their active consent. That is a huge leap from assisted suicide and very dangerous territory.

I can see there being a place for assisted suicide, the right to die. I have so much sympathy for people with terminal, painful, severely limiting, degenerative conditions. The thing that makes me nervous about getting wholeheartedly behind the campaign for assisted suicide is the fear that it would normalise thinking and talking, as you have above, about making a choice to end someone else’s life due to how it is perceived from the outside. That kind of argument is too easily subverted for selfish, abusive purposes - though I can also tell from your post that you loved your parents deeply and, for you, this is all coming from a desire to reduce their suffering. Just as I don’t want to be forced to live in pain, I also don’t want someone else deciding that my life isn’t worth continuing when I’m not able to express that choice for myself. I’m especially concerned about any argument that links euthanasia and cost of care.

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:45

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:42

And what if, when that time comes, you resist all attempts to sedate and euthanise you, what happens next?

The same question was put to me a few pages back. My personal feelings are that my wishes when I did have capacity should be respected.

Oldermum84 · 18/08/2024 20:45

I'm so sorry for your experiences. Yes, often euthanasia would be less cruel, I agree.

A lot of it is hindsight though, as you say you only look back now and think these things, you didn't at the time.

I work in social care and relatives are always wanting their family to live longer. They worry they will overdose on meds, or that their diet isn't healthy enough, or they will fall and hit their head and not be found..when most of the time none of this really matters for an extremely elderly person who has no quality of life. It's very difficult, mostly impossible and would be entirely unprofessional of me to say "they are old, they are going to be dead soon, it doesn't matter".

I have spoken to many older people who are utterly miserable. It's very sad.

flapjackfairy · 18/08/2024 20:42

Noras · 18/08/2024 19:10

We live in a world of finite resources,

Perhaps I was mentally pleading and rehearsing my own case. Please one day let me die because it would be cheaper for my children and the State,

I have a SEN son I don’t want my money taken by care costs and leave little for him to live on.

and how would you feel if one day your child's SEN was deemed a drain on society and his life wasn't worth preserving? Some people think.that already applies to mine apparently !
This is the slippery slope we are embarking upon .

rainbowbee · 18/08/2024 20:42

One grandmother existed with dementia for seven years. She was wealthy, not that it matters, but the care home ate all that up whilst she was in a nappy unaware of her first name. She would absolutely have chosen Dignitas or the like. Another grandparent had a dying process that spanned 10 days and her own son who is a vet had to step out in tears saying he would not leave a dog or cat, horse or hamster to just suffer indignity like that.

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:42

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:40

I'd suggest the person themself makes that decision while they still have capacity. If I decide that if I become ill, I want to go once i'm unable to control my bowels and recognise my family. That should be respected. If when making my directive I want to remain until i can no longer eat, again respect my wishes. If I wish to carry on to the bitter end and die effectively from malnutrition then again that is my decision to make.

And what if, when that time comes, you resist all attempts to sedate and euthanise you, what happens next?

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:41

Can I just say, that as difficult and emotive as this thread is, especially for the OP and those who are sharing personal experiences, I think it’s an amazingly respectful thread and I hope it’s giving loads of food for thought for people about the complexities of this issue.

Noras · 18/08/2024 20:41

Lizzie67384 · 18/08/2024 20:31

That’s not what you actually said though - you were talking about older people costing the state money, which could be used to fund over state services?

I stated a fact taken from the Gov website. I began with that only as I had just read the Gov report. When I first read it I was shocked that some accountants had worked out the cost per death for the Gov with detailed stats. So I began my post with factual statement and n9 expression or argument

Also this week I was having long thoughts about my future as I approach an important birthday. I then reflected on my parents awful death and the impact it had on my family.

I then suggested that we needed a debate.

During this debate I have clearly expressed what I would like for myself only.

OP posts:
ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:40

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:36

And that’s the point. You can’t apply criteria or categories. So WHO makes the decisions based on what?

I'd suggest the person themself makes that decision while they still have capacity. If I decide that if I become ill, I want to go once i'm unable to control my bowels and recognise my family. That should be respected. If when making my directive I want to remain until i can no longer eat, again respect my wishes. If I wish to carry on to the bitter end and die effectively from malnutrition then again that is my decision to make.

Garlicfest · 18/08/2024 20:36

Yet another reminder that you CAN control this without any 'euthanasia' laws.

You can make an Advance Decision (also called an ADRT or Living Will).

If you haven't done this, yet get the diagnosis you fear, you can bump yourself off.

What you CAN'T legally do is have someone else killed or do it yourself. And that's as it should be.

nhs.uk

Advance decision (living will)

An advance decision to refuse treatment lets your healthcare team know your wishes if you are not able to communicate them.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/end-of-life-care/planning-ahead/advance-decision-to-refuse-treatment/

cupcaske123 · 18/08/2024 20:36

Noras · 18/08/2024 20:29

It would not be the son because most kids if they are normal actually would never want their parents life to end. The World is not full of all these evil monsters. Just watch people looking after their aged parents and making sure they don’t slip or fall or making sure they are in their best clothes etc. Human nature is not evil like that.

Flipping heck, I was making sure that my dad had vases full of flowers and me and my s in law rushed off to sort out a Xmas tree with decorations for him. Our whole lives were taken with taking him ( before he started slipping sideways ) to places to keep him happy. People actually love their parents believe it or not. They are cherished but the pain of watching them suffer combined with what is a bloody scene is horrendous,

You come across as naive. Some people don't bother with their parents at all and given the chance would euthanasise them and collect their inheritance.

You're also naive in thinking that medical staff wouldn't simply choose to save money and time on a patient. It's also naive to think that this would only encompass the terminally ill and wouldn't soon apply to other medical issues as well as the suicidal.

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:36

ATenShun · 18/08/2024 20:31

I suspect the peaceful scene you describe is the exception rather than the rule. What about the nights screaming when you have forgotten where you are. The days getting aggressive and hurting yourself and others out of fear. The time where you have forgotten how to swallow.

It is obviously not black and white and something we should discuss with our loved ones and have the legal right to do.

And that’s the point. You can’t apply criteria or categories. So WHO makes the decisions based on what?

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