Random stranger sat on my table at a dinner and tribute act show

@HolidayAtNight I already explained why it's more risky. That aside, the way many men treat women who they think are unattractive, or easy, or a sure thing, makes it very unappealing to approach random guys.

And yet, many men approach women who think they are unattractive, or "easy," or a "sure thing" anyway.

you run the risk of not knowing whether they actually like you for you

I'm confused. Is that not the whole point of dating, that you go on a few dates then decide whether or not you like the other person? So men are likely to say yes initially, but then they might change their mind after a few dates right?

Is that not the whole point? No person is ever going to know if they like someone before dating.

I already explained why it's more risky. That aside, the way many men treat women who they think are unattractive, or easy, or a sure thing, makes it very unappealing to approach random guys. Furthermore, as men are more likely to say yes to any given woman than vice versa (based on experience, data on swiping trends on online dating, and a study on responses to random propositioning), you run the risk of not knowing whether they actually like you for you (which is always one of the main issues, whether they truly see you as a whole person and not a sidekick/part of their story/fantasy object to project ideas onto) or just said yes because you were there and making it clear you were interested.

That depends - when I used Bumble, for example, all the time because that's how the app is set up. I have no problem with asking a man out if I'm interested - but that comes AFTER we've been chatting for a while and I've got some idea of what he's like (which may still be wrong, but is more likely to bear some semblance to reality compared to chatting up Mr Random by sitting at his table at the ABBA tribute concert).

@HolidayAtNight It sounds like we agree on many points anyway.

Women aren't going to risk their safety by approaching men to make it easier for men to find dates.

Again, how do you know that's more risky?

When single, I use online dating to meet men.

With online dating, how often do you send the first message, push for a meeting, and arrange the date?

Nope. A few posts on MN does not indicate "culture" as a whole. Stop justifying pervy old men. Besides, OP told him she was fine and indicated clearly she wanted to be alone as well as telling him she was married.

If you think thats a green light to continue harrassing women you need to be careful because you'll end up in trouble one of these days....

@shuggles Do not presume to tell women how to risk assess men.

I feel like my point isn't getting through here. I neither want to approach nor be approached. When single, I use online dating to meet men. These days especially, I have an assumption that a man who breaks the social rules to chat up a total stranger is more likely to be a wrong 'un precisely because he is going against the prevailing culture. The only way I could see that approach working would be more like... getting to know someone who regularly attends similar events to you, and eventually chatting to them ABOUT the art/theatre/whatever before getting to know each other better (this is how my mum met her partner). Not just 0-100 with a complete randomer who has been chosen purely on the basis of her looks, because her personality is at that point a total unknown.

Someone with good social skills, friends or not, would know that cold approaching random women is unlikely to be a good strategy to find a romantic partner. Women aren't going to risk their safety by approaching men to make it easier for men to find dates.

@velvetcoat You think culture tells men to keep persisting even when woman have just TOLD them they are married?

Well given the number of "OW" threads, and threads about men and women cheating, that I see on mumsnet, it should be self-evident that society does indeed encourage men to pursue women regardless of whether or not they are married.

@HolidayAtNight Because by approaching them, the dangerous men see it as you having given them an "in".

The first thing to understand is that dangerous men are a tiny minority of men. The second thing is that dangerous men are far, far more likely to approach women and try to initiate contact with them than normal men.

This means that if you wait to be approached, you are more likely to find yourself talking to a scumbag, or an aggressive man, or a dangerous man. If you approach men instead, the probability of meeting someone normal is far higher.

Umm... with extreme difficulty? If these men have no social life, no friends, and presumably very limited social skills either because of or leading to being in that situation, how can they expect to enter into a healthy romantic relationship?

Well I would strongly disagree that people who have few, or no friends, have "limited social skills." Some people are perfectly normal and pleasant, but find themselves with no friends because of life circumstances. Financial difficulty, illness, family problems, circumstances around their job, etc.

You think culture tells men to keep persisting even when woman have just TOLD them they are married?

No. Thats idiotic.

My DH and I went for a 3 Michelin star meal last year. There was a woman on her own at the table next to us, happily working her way through the tasting menu while listening to something on your phone. DH says “poor thing, she must be lonely, should we invite her to join us” and all I could think was “are you mad? That woman is living the dream! Having a fantastic experience, exactly as she likes, with no one to bother her” He just did not get it, to him you cannot enjoy yourself on your own, some people are like that.

But in this case he was either hitting on you or trying to get himself a free upgrade and you were within your rights to tell him to sod off.

@rookiemere Do young people not chat each other up at nightclubs and such like any more then?

People have never met at nightclubs. It is impossible to speak to other people in places where the music is too loud to shout over.

Although I do think one of the saddest things about increased wfh is many people met their life partners that way, often working together and developing a mutual respect for each other before getting together romantically.

Dear god, trying to meet a romantic partner in the place you work is, and always has been, a horrendous idea. WFH is irrelevant- the overwhelming majority of people I think would not romantically pursue a colleague just on principle.

Because by approaching them, the dangerous men see it as you having given them an "in". Ask women why they don't approach, or even give platonic compliments to, men. Most of us have had the experience of trying to be nice and friendly and then being aggressively pursued because of it. You don't know if you're actually interested in anything more with someone until you've had at least a decent conversation, but it's common for them to be like "She spoke to me/smiled at me! She definitely wants me!" and then it starts. This isn't conjecture, it's reality.

Over 60 is not the ancient mariner. Many, many men of his generation use online dating.

Umm... with extreme difficulty? If these men have no social life, no friends, and presumably very limited social skills either because of or leading to being in that situation, how can they expect to enter into a healthy romantic relationship? They sound like the LAST people who should be approaching random strangers, as having little engagement with people doesn't bode well for their ability to read social cues. Developing their people skills would help them in all sorts of ways. Going out and hunting for a random woman is not a realistic plan.

Do young people not chat each other up at nightclubs and such like any more then ? It would be very odd if all relationships were started through online medium these days. Although I do think one of the saddest things about increased wfh is many people met their life partners that way, often working together and developing a mutual respect for each other before getting together romantically.

In any case the rules should be consistent. Fine to approach someone politely, but read their signals carefully and back off quickly if the attraction is not reciprocated.

@ShuvieTupya don't you think its bad though? I know I do. 2000 years of men approaching women just gone because of social media and dating apps where you find a partner online like you find a washing machine. Sad times.

I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing. The small number of times I have approached women, it has never gone well and I have absolutely hated myself for doing it. Women agree that they also intensely dislike being approached by men. So clearly, the practice is not socially acceptable and it is a good thing that it is becoming less frequent.

I am pretty sure finding a washing machine is far easier than being matched on a dating website though.

@HolidayAtNight It is far too dangerous for women to approach random men. You never know if he's going to think any chat is a come-on and that you're "gagging for it" and start following you, harassing you or far, far worse.

And yet, this already happens. So how is this scenario more dangerous than the current setup with having men approaching women instead?

If men want dates, they can use dating apps so that they know that the women they interact with are looking to meet someone

The man in this case was older than 60, and dating apps/websites may be completely foreign to him.

or meet people the old-fashioned way, through friends or shared activities.

How do men meet women if they have no friends, or few friends (as is commonly the case in men over the age of 30 or so), or do not engage in any activities which involve meeting other people?

@shuggles don't you think its bad though? I know I do. 2000 years of men approaching women just gone because of social media and dating apps where you find a partner online like you find a washing machine. Sad times.

@ShuvieTupya Men have always pursued women and its only the last 15 or so years when it's tailed off a bit. Anyone who's ever been to a bar/pub/club pre 2010 will probably have been hit on many many times!

Agreed. It was extremely common more than a decade ago. Now, there are far fewer men approaching women because men are slowly but surely learning that it is not socially acceptable.

Note that the man in this case was older than 60. He likely doesn't use the internet much and has not witnessed any of the intense backlash from women about being "approached."

For boomers and Gen Xers, approaching random women in public is completely normal because that was the only way for people of those generations to find romantic partners.

@shuggles It is far too dangerous for women to approach random men. You never know if he's going to think any chat is a come-on and that you're "gagging for it" and start following you, harassing you or far, far worse. Women on this thread have given so many examples of men not knowing (or, as I often suspect, pretending not to know as they can't all be THAT socially inept) that the woman they're talking to is deeply uncomfortable and wants them to leave. It's a very common experience for us to have.

If men want dates, they can use dating apps so that they know that the women they interact with are looking to meet someone, or meet people the old-fashioned way, through friends or shared activities. Approaching strangers out of the blue has never been the main way of meeting romantic partners, despite what lots of men say about the good old days.

@Livingtothefull Rather, this would likely be indicative of the kind of society where women would be confident that they could initiate, continue and end an interaction whenever and however they chose and that their choices would always be respected. Because a fundamental respect for women would be taken for granted.

Well keep dreaming, because you can't build that society unless you take the initiative.

So long as women don't approach men, men will choose to do it instead.

A man approaching a lone woman at a table as a 'sitting target' is so rarely going to be a good idea and I would expect any man I would be interested in talking to to be sensitive enough to understand that.

I don't think approaching a table of 4-5 women is a good idea either.

So let's go back to my original question. You have a woman in public who is willing to meet and talk to men, but is unwilling to initiate any such dialogue. You have a man in public who is willing to meet and talk to women.

How do the above two people meet without the man first initiating conversation with the woman?

Men have always pursued women and its only the last 15 or so years when it's tailed off a bit. Anyone who's ever been to a bar/pub/club pre 2010 will probably have been hit on many many times! In this case I suspect the fact he was an older fella was the annoyance. Had he been 40 and fit it would have been a compliment.

I would take issue @shuggles with the believe that if women felt free to approach men, this alone would definitely resolve the problem. Rather, this would likely be indicative of the kind of society where women would be confident that they could initiate, continue and end an interaction whenever and however they chose and that their choices would always be respected. Because a fundamental respect for women would be taken for granted.

To put it bluntly: we would have to no longer live in a patriarchal society.

The problem is not due to women's unwillingness to approach men (ie once again women's fault) but due to a basic lack of respect for women and women's spaces on the part of some men, underpinned - I agree - by a culture that encourages men to be persistent and brush aside women's objections.

What I suggest instead is that such men have the sensitivity and respect to be able to read social cues and know when their attention is not wanted, and not waste their time. A man approaching a lone woman at a table as a 'sitting target' is so rarely going to be a good idea and I would expect any man I would be interested in talking to to be sensitive enough to understand that.

@sunnydaytoday0 The issue in the OP's case wasn't that he spoke to her, it's that he kept on speaking to her and being in her close presence when it was clear it wasn't wanted.

Yes, which is a symptom of a culture in which men are told to pursue women. That's what happens when men are expected to pursue women.

Get a grip. What a pathetic nation we have become if people cant talk without being labeled perverts. Just nod and smile and ask him to leave if he doesnt get the message.

She said he was 62. I grew up with New Romantics in the early 80s and I’m in my 50s. 🙄

My ‘massively ageist generalisation’ is based on what me and my friends in their 40s-50s experience when we are in the receiving end of arrogant, borish, sexist bullshit. 9 times out of 10 it comes out of the mouths of older men in their 60s and 70s. I also know lovely gentlemen of that age but I’m standing by my broad generalisation, because I find it ‘broadly’ to be true.

Random man needs to learn the difference between forcing himself into conversation with a woman minding her own business and wanting to continue doing so, and getting a response from someone happy to chat.