Can’t just be me who is sick of the moaning about the private school VAT and winter fuel payments

My mum is going to struggle, hope you are happy.

My friend's son with additional needs will be using a space at a state school and is really struggling with his mental health.

Also hope this makes you happy.

I suppose it depends what your definition of "very wealthy" is doesn't it? That's what it comes down to. Plenty of people have posted on these threads about how they are using PS out of desperation, not ideology. As I have repeatedly said, I would love not to have to use it, for my kids to be safe and have their needs met in state, along with everyone else's - I can barely, with a lot of use of long term debt, afford it whilst keeping a roof over our heads and food on the table, but some seem to think that makes me wealthy - I'm really not and I'm not the only one. As others' have said, this will entrench divide, not reduce it.
As for anecdata - I'm trying to demonstrate that actually very few PS have the sort of money and facilities that a lot of people think they have. Every thread on this topic is full of sweeping, inaccurate generalisations. Some schools can expand classes, lose a few extras etc - the result will likely be that some parents pull out, put their kids in state and the effectiveness of the policy is reduced. Some can absorb the costs, great. I'd just like someone to acknowledge that there ARE going to be children that suffer as a result of this without any surety that there will be a discernible improvement in state. Where are the extra teachers coming from? Where is the extra space for SEN hubs? How will they reduce the chaos of 1000+pupil comps so that ND kids can navigate the corridors at lesson change and lunchtime without being overwhelmed? Saying "there'll be extra money" isn't, by itself, a plan.

Good point, an old family friend of mine is in her 80s and on pension credit. She goes on holiday 2x a year to visit her adult children & grandchildren in Europe.

Her adult children pay for everything.

She also goes out to eat once a week, but it is a lunch club at the local church for pensioners and is quite literally a free lunch. When we go out to eat, I pay for her.

But it is no one’s business that she isn’t paying for all this and we don’t even bring it up when together, it’s just what we do so she can be included as PC is not much to live on.

Anecdata? you mean like your situation? ok for you to talk about how this will affect you but not ok for me to mention my experience of private schools.
The vast majority of PS children are not poor, middle income earners struggling to make ends meet.
Why can't this 7 billion be used to improve SENs provision in state schools, why should it remain in the hands of the very wealthy?

Millions of adults and children cannot access dentistry, millions more in poverty, so many failing schools, crumbling roads and public buildings.

Unless we tax the wealthy far more, then this country will continue its downward slide.

Will taxing fees make much of a difference? no it won't but if its part of an overall increase in taxation on the wealthy, who over the last few years have done extremely well, then its a good thing.

As i said early, its not going to be a 20%, even if your school does nothing to mitigate the extra expense, it will be 15%, a responsible school, that cares about any struggling parents will look at more cost saving measures, fund raising and charges for extra curricular activities.

@iwishihadknownmore I can assure mine does not have a horse groom! Anecdata gets us nowhere. All I keep hearing is "some can". Noone wants to know the truth is that many can't. And I phrased it badly re the economic forecast..I meant there is not agreement..sone studies predict the fall in roll and increase to state places will cancel out the revenue raised, or the claim back option will do similar.
I think the fact that they have gone for the nuclear option of introducing it to all, in January instead of a Sept 25 roll out, with possible options for it being applied at point of entry so that noone currently mid GCSE or whatever has to find it or move speaks volumes about the real motive here. If they'd showed some understanding of the issues faced rather than just a "stick it to the rich" approach, I'd be more convinced of their good faith.

For anyone, pensioner or younger person that is struggling, it’s worth checking out entitlement on this site. Pension Credit is not affected by home ownership:

https://benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/

But once her savings fall below the limit she will be entitled to claim PC? Eta: she might actually be entitled anyway as she can still claim, but a notional income of £1 will be applied for ever £500 of capital above £10k.

As for other people on PC having holidays and eating out several times a week, are you sure they get PC?

My mum was on PC and she got by OK, but there were no holidays, no eating out several times a week.

Thanks. I have already told my mum to check this again. I will remind her.

iwishihadknownmore
Your idea has merit in terms of lower rates and then higher rates

But £200 does make a difference to people. My mum lives in a retirement flat which is very economical to heat. £200 is about 2.5 months heating for her which is the worst bit of winter. She, like lots of people, picked a home with low running costs as she was on a fixed low income. She doesn't get pension credits. She hasn't really complained about the change but she doesn't have much sympathy for people in big houses complaining about running costs to be fair.

Re pensions - an interesting piece on Sky News this morning - 880,000 households apparently yet to claim the (new) WFA, to which they're entitled.

https://news.sky.com/story/money-blog-news-latest-consumer-skynews-13040934

Really? You need to go through a benefits calculator with her, owning her home wont stop her claiming Pension Credits.

The previous Govt allowed energy prices to rocket and have frozen tax thresholds for many years.

£10 a month private pension isn't going to put your mum into the basic rate income tax bracket.

Just as £200 towards energy prices isn't going to make much difference either, what would do is to reduce energy prices for average users and for people who use lots for optional items, should pay more per unit, other countries do this to aid the less well off, why can't we?

She has some savings which she got by downsizing her house. It's not a huge amount. The limit for pension credits is £10k so really not much if that is subsidising your income for many years.

Misinformation is rife on here. Owning her own home would not prevent claiming pension credit or savings credit. It's based in her income, other investments, savings, etc, not on owning your main residence.

You poor mum, I am so sorry. I feel really sad thinking about elderly people not being able to afford things for themselves. Because my mum was one of them and I. Helped her out the best. I could, but you know I was struggling myself when I was younger.

How is it right that because your mum? Owns her home. She's not entitled to any help. Contrast this with a younger person. When my sister was in her late 30s, her husband divorced her because she cheated on him. He had to pay her out a quarter of a million. She bought a mortgage free property with that. She is too lazy to work. She works very part-time hours. Teaching gym classes and IM talking about 5 hours a week if that. She earns less than a 100 pounds a week and that is entirely by choice.

Even though she's divorced; she doesn't feel she should have to work and wants to be kept in the manner of which she's accustomed to when her husband kept her. Whilst she was having affairs behind his back.

Her mortgage free home isn't taken into account. And she's on universal credit and goodness knows what else because of her low-income. My sister is now early 40s and fully capable of working. She is healthy. Her child is nearly at secondary school now. And spends 50% with the dad. My sister refuses to work because she has a child. How is it right that somebody who is young and can work and doesn't want to and owns property outright isn't made to get off their backside and get a job or have their benefits taken away or have their home taken into account? But a vulnerable older person, can I mean I think? It's disgraceful.

But no one will agree on here simply by virtue of having had a child.Some people think you never need to work again even though you capable of it, but elderly people well, fuck them.They can go and pay for themselves.

Some schools might not have the room, plenty more will have and they don't have to go to 30 plus in a classroom, why not just a small increase? drop some of the sport on offer? and/or charge the parents who can afford it, more for the extras?

The mid level private school my brother used, employs a Physio and a Horse Groom.

The IFS, one the UKs biggest think tanks, says 7 billion is more than realistic, so its wrong to say "no one agrees money can be raised"

No you won't be wrong, 7 billion wont fix all the issues in state schools but it will help & if that 7 billion isn't raised by VAT, who should pay it instead?

My mum is affected by the winter fuel payment. She worked hard all her life but with a minimal private pension (by which I mean almost nothing - like £10 a month). My dad passed away too young for her to benefit from his pension so she only has her state pension. She isn't entitled to anything else because she also owns her home. She has friends who didn't build up their years for a full state pension and now get pension credits and are much better off than she is, having holidays and eating out several days a week. It makes me really angry. She is also going over the threshold so will start saying income tax on her state pension which is all she has to live in. She is 78 and has to work part time for some extra cash. She doesn't get any of the extra benefits her friends on pension credits get and she has a lower monthly income.

thank you - it's a big issue but they have said, contrary to earlier rumours that even those with EHCPs will not be exempt from this and a lot of the SEN kids in private are there because they couldn't get an EHCP in time for their schooling to actually be positively impacted by it. The gov is so far not responding to these concerns at all and just keep banging on about this very untested theory that it will bring in 1.5bn a year and magically produce more teachers. I get tired of pp on this talking about the "tiny minority" that they grudgingly admit might be badly affected. When you ARE that tiny minority, its pretty frustrating to read the the sneery, gleeful jibes about "Sebastian and Arabella" slumming it with the plebs etc.

I'm not sure what exactly you're struggling to understand, but think of it as a Venn diagram maybe? So in one circle, you have people who did well under the Tories. So in the last 14 years they have built and lived affluent privileged lives. They have wealth and they have been able to use that wealth to further advantage themselves. They haven't had to worry too much about failing services because they can afford to buy better ones.
In another circle you have people who come onto MN to complain about Labour policies, predict disaster, call the PM silly names, make absurd parallels with communism and so on. Where those two circles intersect, you'll find the people I'm referring to. Does that help?
Because the only way I can think you might not understand is if you think no one did well under the last government? Which would be an odd position for a Conservative to take. Perhaps you voted Reform?

@RhaenysRocks I did say (in a previous post, to be fair) that I realised that there was a difference when it came to SEN.

Again, a lot of ignorance about how many small private schools work. V tight margins is one. They are looking for ways to.mitigate this but they don't have the headroom that lots of people assume schools have. Class sizes...the rooms were built to house small classes. They can't fit 30. They can't physically fit in more. A lot of what makes the school what it is would go if they crammed in a load more kids, fired some staff and dropped the extra curricular and wraparound they provide.
The "7 billion" is pure conjecture and not remotely agreed upon by independent economic think tanks. As I said, contrary to what some posters think, I'm not trying to separate my kid, or give them an advantage over others...I think every child is deserving of the same experience mine is now getting. I just disagree that this policy is the way to do it. If, in 5 years, we have thousands more state teachers, fully staffed SEN departments, no more schools falling down and the rates of EBSA have dropped due to kids being happy in 1000+ comps then I'll admit I'm wrong.

Your school doesn't need to pass on the full 20% does it? around 5% will be reclaimed, they can cut back another 5% with slightly larger class sizes.

We had to move schools because of relentless bullying & lost the free school transport, so around £1000 per year on top, no ifs or buts, we couldn't afford that either.

Over the term of this Govt, VAT on fees will raise around 7 billion for state schools.

That clarifies things, thanks.

Oh wait, it really doesn’t.

Talk about being obtuse.

But would you have had your child faced significant bullying or had unmet SEN needs and your circumstances did not allow a move to a different catchment? So so many posters on these threads refuse to acknowledge that in many areas the state system is actively damaging children. Getting an EHCP now is a torturous slog with incredibly high thresholds, an almost automatic refusal without appeal or tribunal and takes years whilst a child is left unsupported.

As a parent I take whatever steps are in my power to do the best for my kid and for them, that was a move to a small, non selective, pastorally brilliant school. I'm in debt to do it and the extra 20% will only increase that. I would LOVE to not have to, I absolutely believe all kids should have access to what they now do. I'm not interested in keeping away from "plebs", or preserving privilege or any of the other judgemental sneers, I'm just keeping my kid safe and healthy. To actually improve the state system to a point where the above situation is not the case will take at least ten times what this policy is allegedly going to raise. But that would be FAR less of a vote winner with the 93% so the pointless raid on the 7% was the answer. It will do basically nothing in real terms to improve anything, and actively harm some...my kid can name friends who are leaving their safe and familiar school as soon as their parents can find a state place. When you start putting real names and faces to this policy it becomes far less of a "win".

Err we have a points based system, with min income and skills levels required.

What on earth do you think someone coming here to work is? they are by default, an Economic Migrant.

Why have numbers gones from approx 200k to 700k ?

perhaps if posters weren’t wasting £20k plus on schools fees per child they wouldn’t be so worried about any tax increase needed to pay for everything else.
I know posters on MN are all sending their kids to super inclusive schools that lend the plebs their pools and only charge £5k a year but they’re the anomaly as the average day fees are now around £18/19k a year.