Page 18 | Can’t just be me who is sick of the moaning about the private school VAT and winter fuel payments

TruthorDie · 2024-08-16T21:09:17+00:00

The moaning about them seems to be never ending. So tone death and indulgent on both counts. Not sure which is worse. A friends mum was ranting on social media earlier about winter fuel payments being stopped and how “worried about being cold” she was. Bad news is Lynn you haven’t needed to work since 1989, married to an oil exec and have had lots of the good life. I’m sure all of your Florida holidays keep you warm enough! Bright children can get on anywhere, my siblings and l went to a comprehensive. We all have a couple of degrees, one of us has a PhD so it didn’t hold us back too much in life. Before anyone comes at it from the neurodiversity angle then l am and l wouldn’t be surprised if my younger sibling isn’t

ssd · 17/08/2024 09:18

The laughs keep coming

55andlovinglife · 17/08/2024 09:17

YABU

The VAT on school fees is malicious and vindictive. NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world does it. There’s a reason for that and it’s that education should never be penalised.

Taking the winter fuel allowance off my dad who worked from age 16 in manual labour, till he was 70, in the cold and pouring rain, going out at 5am in the morning to beat the traffic, is f*cking reprehensible.

Labour hate anyone who has a penny more than they should. Oh, except those Labour MPs who live in big houses, went to private schools etc. as some pigs are more equal than others.

ssd · 17/08/2024 09:17

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 09:12

You are wrong to think that the VAT on school fees will only impact the families who choose to send their children to private schools.

(a) those parents pay for a state school place for their child through their taxes. The cost to the state is approx £7.5k per year to educate a child. These parents are therefore paying twice and are saving the state money. If children have to move to state schools it will cost the state more.

(b) if children are having to either leave private schools or not go in the first place because of cost, the local authorities have to find them a state school place. Schools are already at bursting point in many areas which is going to mean an increase in class sizes - a detriment to all kids.

(c) many private schools provide an environment for kids with SEN where they can thrive. The government has said that those with an EHCP will be exempt but they are very hard to get hold of.

The Labour government are playing upon people’s bitterness and envy towards those who on the face of it are better off than them without having actually properly assessed the impact.

A large number of the parents who do choose private schools sacrifice an enormous amount to give their children their education. It is very short sighted to assume that everyone is rich and can just afford the extra 20%. The schools like Eton who do educate the very rich are very much in the minority. It is convenient that the Labour Party chooses not to acknowledge that.

Edited

🤣🤣 thanks, i needed a laugh

Morph22010 · 17/08/2024 09:16

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 09:12

You are wrong to think that the VAT on school fees will only impact the families who choose to send their children to private schools.

(a) those parents pay for a state school place for their child through their taxes. The cost to the state is approx £7.5k per year to educate a child. These parents are therefore paying twice and are saving the state money. If children have to move to state schools it will cost the state more.

(b) if children are having to either leave private schools or not go in the first place because of cost, the local authorities have to find them a state school place. Schools are already at bursting point in many areas which is going to mean an increase in class sizes - a detriment to all kids.

(c) many private schools provide an environment for kids with SEN where they can thrive. The government has said that those with an EHCP will be exempt but they are very hard to get hold of.

The Labour government are playing upon people’s bitterness and envy towards those who on the face of it are better off than them without having actually properly assessed the impact.

A large number of the parents who do choose private schools sacrifice an enormous amount to give their children their education. It is very short sighted to assume that everyone is rich and can just afford the extra 20%. The schools like Eton who do educate the very rich are very much in the minority. It is convenient that the Labour Party chooses not to acknowledge that.

Edited

The government hasn’t said those with an ehcp will be exempt, vat will still be applied in cases where child has ehcp

nextdoorconundrum · 17/08/2024 09:16

@AngelusBell

Put the details into the Turn2us calculator.

benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/survey/1/20a3b151-e18d-4517-afcb-b470c9461baf

Bare in mind that that you do not pay
tax on £218 state pension as it's below the personal allowance. If tax is being paid then it's paid on an additional private pension.

In all cases except pension credit 16k in savings will preclude you from means tested benefits like council tax reduction. Unless you get pension credit (the guaranteed element)

But then again if you have 16k in savings I would argue , that you can pay for your own heating.

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 09:12

You are wrong to think that the VAT on school fees will only impact the families who choose to send their children to private schools.

(a) those parents pay for a state school place for their child through their taxes. The cost to the state is approx £7.5k per year to educate a child. These parents are therefore paying twice and are saving the state money. If children have to move to state schools it will cost the state more.

(b) if children are having to either leave private schools or not go in the first place because of cost, the local authorities have to find them a state school place. Schools are already at bursting point in many areas which is going to mean an increase in class sizes - a detriment to all kids.

(c) many private schools provide an environment for kids with SEN where they can thrive. The government has said that those with an EHCP will be exempt but they are very hard to get hold of.

The Labour government are playing upon people’s bitterness and envy towards those who on the face of it are better off than them without having actually properly assessed the impact.

A large number of the parents who do choose private schools sacrifice an enormous amount to give their children their education. It is very short sighted to assume that everyone is rich and can just afford the extra 20%. The schools like Eton who do educate the very rich are very much in the minority. It is convenient that the Labour Party chooses not to acknowledge that.

Catapultaway · 17/08/2024 09:12

TruthorDie · 16/08/2024 22:24

Very much doubt it’s just me. My husband now refuses to discuss either topic as he finds the moaning too annoying and self indulgent to give it head space. He took great joy in asking his pensioner parents how they would cope without theirs. They laughed.

I know pensioners across the continuum in all fairness. The thresholds had to be somewhere at the end of the day. State pensions are £221 per week plus pension credits. I know of people in their 50’s getting less than £400 per month in universal credit

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For two people who don't want to discuss it... you spend a lot of time talking about it

ssd · 17/08/2024 09:12

There's always a cut off point for certain benefits. We earned a very low wage when the kids were small and one year we got working tax credits and just getting that made a huge difference. But the following year we were just over the amount by abouts £150 and we lost it...and felt the loss. But its what it is.

Sometimes people just like a moan. I can imagine the majority of people sending kids to private school or pensioners who dont need winter fuel allowance aren't natural labour voters.

Original poster

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 09:07

Boomer55 · 17/08/2024 08:34

But, it’s variable across time. I didn’t expect anyone to pay my childcare costs so I could work. No vouchers etc then. 🤷‍♀️

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Childcare costs are subsidized rather being paid. We get 20% off, bearing in mind the cost for 2 days a week is £1,500 then it’s still a lot of money to find. Before anyone says l should have budgeted better / not had 2 children then we have twins. We also are with the cheapest provider in our area

OP posts:

Moreofthesamenothanks · 17/08/2024 09:05

piscofrisco · 17/08/2024 08:43

Winter fuel payment should always have been means tested so for me this is a move in the right direction, but the way it's means tested and the levels for qualification need to be looked at urgently.

That said I get the jist of your post op. The daily fail banging on about the war on pensioners whilst on the next page raging about benefits Britain....They can't have it both ways.
My FIL went on a rant about this yesterday. He was forced to tap his noise when asked if the loss of his winter fuel payment would affect his plans to go on a European cruise next spring? It's these kinds of people moaning that are getting my goat obviously, not the ones who will actually suffer due to this policy and I assume this is also the case for the op.

😂 a winter cruise would cost more than WFP, or is he using his WFP to pay towards cruise. Either way the country cannot afford to hive money away to richer pensioners whilst people cannot feed their children.

5128gap · 17/08/2024 09:04

Its irritating to hear very privileged wealthy people making noise about paying more for things they can afford.
It's irritating to hear people suddenly discovering and (liberally using) the word 'unfair' after the unfairness of hard working people being unable to heat their homes and needing foodbanks has gone unchallenged for years.
Its irritating that after 14 years of government that blatantly worked to benefit those with greatest advantage over those without, people are suddenly affronted that politics isn't 'fair'.
However when pensioners are receiving a couple of pound over the PC cut off and on the cusp of poverty, or people are worried about their SEN children, I have empathy.

Original poster

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 09:03

OnceUponAMay · 17/08/2024 08:34

@TruthorDie at least you have power (though big bills). Lots of people in the world have no electricity sadly.

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I am aware lots of people in the world don’t.

OP posts:

Original poster

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 09:01

Scarletrunner · 17/08/2024 08:44

Correct me if I’m wrong but the wfa was a bribe by Gordon Brown to get votes to stay in power which worked - bribes don’t make good policy. I think it was ?iain Duncan smith who applied the triple lock on pensions as a bribe for votes - TMay lost votes when she wanted to fix care home costs!!? - the older generation need to stop being manipulated -if you need more pension you need more pension not sops.

Hopefully they are gunning for the triple lock. It is another indulgence when you think about child poverty figures, the NHS etc

OP posts:

NeverDropYourMorayCup · 17/08/2024 09:01

Full data on English hospital admissions for hypothermia by age is available here:

https://digital.nhs.uk/supplementary-information/2023/hospital-admissions-with-a-diagnosis-of-hypothermia

Sadly rates are much higher in older people. If rates go up for this winter it will be a very clear indication that Labour have been too harsh with this policy. With the added financial failing that hospital admissions are very expensive, so the policy change might end up costing more money than it saves, whilst also costing lives.

Hospital admissions with a diagnosis of hypothermia - NHS England Digital

We’re the national information and technology partner to the health and social care system using digital technology to transform the NHS and social care

https://digital.nhs.uk/supplementary-information/2023/hospital-admissions-with-a-diagnosis-of-hypothermia

Geosmin · 17/08/2024 09:00

@TruthorDie

"State pensions are £221 per week plus pension credits."

Not all pensioners get the new rate. It depends which year you were born in. Those born in the late 40s, early 50s don't get the new rate.

Original poster

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 08:58

HappilyContentTheseDays · 17/08/2024 07:50

I agree OP, there is too much outcry. There are cuts which need to be made somewhere - the country has little money and no-one wants taxes to rise - and funds need to be raised.

Just to qualify - I am an about-to-be pensioner and the loss of winter fuel allowance will affect me too but no, I am not campaigning against it and think it is a good idea. If you check the figures, there are something like 12.8 million pensioners in the UK. Only 1.1 million will, like me, be relying on the state pension alone. The rest have more than enough to live on as they have their own home/private pensions/other savings and do not need the WFA. Those who are really hard hit can still apply for extra help.

I will be living on state pension alone plus I rent my property, with an extremely small amount of savings. I have done my budget calculations, my needs are simple and I haven't factored WFA in any of my calculations. I will have enough to live on, quite happily, without it.

As for the VAT on school fees, I have spent some years of my life involved in private education in various roles. Many independent schools have changed over the years, especially the larger ones - I am talking mainstream ones rather than those who cater for special needs though. The school I have just retired from, more than 80% of pupils are from overseas, children of rich Chinese, Middle Eastern or Russian parents, many European billionaires etc. There are fewer and fewer UK parents; those who struggle are offered bursaries or can apply for scholarships. Some of the larger schools are offering to cover the VAT increase themselves, and some are doing deals whereby some VAT can be reclaimed so that the overall percentage is around 8% rather than 20%. Independent schools are generally a choice, there are other choices if it doesn't suit your finances.

Completely agree. The cuts need to be made somewhere, as there is a shortfall. Lots of people don’t want to acknowledge it.

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Crushedcandy · 17/08/2024 08:56

Winter fuel payments are brilliant for those who need them. So anyone who is in receipt of benefits will still receive them. More prosperous pensioners, who don't need benefits, don't need the payment. So it's a good saving for the government to stop paying it as a universal benefit.

That all depends on whether you consider living alone with a sole income of £221.20 is prosperous. Those in receipt of full state pension are not eligible for pension credit and have now lost their WFA.

Morph22010 · 17/08/2024 08:55

nextdoorconundrum · 17/08/2024 08:46

Morph220110
Council tax reduction scheme. Info here.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/information-guides/ageukig54 councilltax supporttinf.pdf

If you qualify for the guaranteed element of Pension credit then should get 100% relief. If not, then based on income. Use a benefits calculator like turn2us to work it out for you.

Two important things to remember.
1.If you are currently. 'Just over the limit' for Pension Credit. but subsequently get awarded Attendance Allowance. Or start caring for someone . Re calculate your entitlement with the new circumstances. It changes the parameters a lot.

If you don't qualify for Pension credit and have over 16k in the bank then most benefits (not Pension Credit) have this as an absolute cut off. This includes housing benefit and council tax reduction scheme.

I don’t know exactly what income my mum has, I know it’s not loads, she has old state pension and then a small nhs pension as she only worked for nhs for about 10 years. No savings but lives in mortgage free house, half owned by my dad they divorced years ago and it should have been sold when we reached 18 and money split but up he’s just let her carry on living there. There is no where for the council tax support thst gives a figure of what “low income” is. I’ve used the benefits calculator for different scenarios so maybe I’ll just have to bite the bullet and ask her income or take a sneaky look at her online banking as she always asks me to make payments on thst for her as she can’t do.

HelenWheels · 17/08/2024 08:54

NeverDropYourMorayCup · 17/08/2024 08:35

Older people are more vulnerable in cold weather - they are more likely to have limited mobility, chronic health problems, spend more time at home, be underweight etc - and if you are on less than 12K a year (full state pension) you are going to struggle to heat your home in winter. I agree with means testing the winter fuel allowance but tieing it to pension credit is far too harsh.

i agree

aCatCalledFawkes · 17/08/2024 08:53

My parents are in the 70s and have a ridiculously high income due to investments and pensions, and there is mortgage fully paid off. I earn around 50k a year and there monthly income is higher than mine.
They have given away their winter fuel allowance each year. Clearly they don’t need it and fully agree they shouldn’t get it.

Obviously there not everyone and fuel is so expensive at the moment. I don’t agree with minimum boundaries but feel that there should be a cut for people like my parents.

Perfectlystill · 17/08/2024 08:53

Just you. I'm really sorry for the pe up era worrying about the winter.

School fees, less so, but I don't really come across anyone moaning about them.

Original poster

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 08:52

iNoticed · 17/08/2024 08:27

No one family needs one or two children, but society as a whole relies on people having one or two children.

I’m child free but I sure as hell need other couples to be having 1 or 2 children.

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I agree, no issues with people having 1 or 2 children. I digressed into talking about other benefits as some people were inferring l am ageist and have it in for pensioners. I don’t but l do have issues with people declining to see there isn’t a bottomless pot of money to give to people

OP posts:

ALHCTPS · 17/08/2024 08:51

I’m delighted to see my parents-in-law, with their two homes and final salary pensions, have to give up the winter fuel allowance. It’s absolutely insane they received it to begin with. FIL was chuntering on about how they now have to pay double council tax for their second home in Scotland ‘but get nothing more for it’, and all I can say is that it’s the least they can do. No one NEEDS a second home and their owning that house means it can’t be lived in full time by a local. When MIL started on the topic of how glad she is the two child benefit cap remains, as you ‘shouldn’t have more children than you can afford’, I asked her how it benefitted society in any way having children live in poverty because their parents made poor choices or life threw a curveball. God, they’re mean. Everything they have they ‘worked hard for’ - sure, but they’ve also been immensely privileged but they can’t see that. Their entitlement is breathtaking. If I have to pay more tax to raise standards for those who need it most, fair enough.

rookiemere · 17/08/2024 08:50

Both the WFA and the private school VAT changes are about sending a clear message that previously untouchable groups are now included in the government's sights for raising money and I think that's a good thing.

Yes it's a shame that a small percentage of pensioners will fall into the scenario where they would have been better not earning the full pension, but that's already the case for many of those on low wages paying tax and unable to claim benefits.

I'm not so sure that the VAT on school fees won't cause more problems than it solves though through increased demand at state schools.

Moreofthesamenothanks · 17/08/2024 08:49

BIWI · 16/08/2024 22:13

7% of children go to private school, apparently. (Have seen this figure posted so often I think it's probably true.) I have no time for those who are whinging about VAT being imposed. Let's be clear. Those paying for their children's education are paying for privilege. (I do think there's an exception to be made for those who have SEN though).

Winter fuel payments are brilliant for those who need them. So anyone who is in receipt of benefits will still receive them. More prosperous pensioners, who don't need benefits, don't need the payment. So it's a good saving for the government to stop paying it as a universal benefit.

This.

What's wrong with using a form of means testing for the WFP? Poorer pensioners will still receive it. Richer ones shouldn't.

Yes the endless moaning on these threads from parents who can afford the privilege of private school. 🙄 small number but with the whinging you'd think they were the majority. Very tone deaf to real struggles that many people go through. It's a real eye opener.