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to think Rachel 'Raygun' gun has broken the phrase 'Oh for the confidence of a mediocre man'?

258 replies

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 13:25

( Ok, yes I know I am late to the party on this one).

I'm talking about the Australian women's entry into the breakdancing at the Olympics.

She went out there with absolute confidence, and complete lack of self awareness, and did really terrible breakdancing. It wasn't even really breakdancing. It was like some sort of interpretative dance. Her moves were clunky and slow. they did not flow, the connections between moves were awkward. She was like a competitor in a very, very local competition. And she appeared to have no awareness of this. I know there is a lot of creativity and expression in breaking, but it surely has to be combined with technical skill.

She also appears to have no awareness that the Olympics is about showcasing outstanding physical prowess and technical expertise. Both of which she clearly lacked.

In a way, I admire her confidence, but I don't admire her lack of awareness. I also do not believe she was the best female breaker in Australia.

Part of me feels a bit sorry for her as the break dancing world is clearly her world, but I can't help feeling she got so lost in the theory of the ' expressive' side of breaking she kinda lost sight of the technical skill side. A bit like Rachel Dolezol got so lost in the theory of race being a social construct that she lost sight of the fact you actually need to be black to be black.

OP posts:
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Heber · 14/08/2024 16:58

EsioTrotlove · 14/08/2024 16:49

Only read OP posts, so apologies if this has already been said; but Rachel Gunn is an academic specialising in social studies, who has lectured on gender politics in breakdancing. I think she is quite a capable dancer, but was making some sort of point in her performance for the purposes of her studies. A bit of a dick move (pun intended) if you think about all the young girls and women who would have loved to have taken her place.

If that's the case, then it was hideously self serving and did precisely nothing for the girls and women who are now seeing the thing they're genuinely passionate about ridiculed.

I rather suspect she'll be back with a firmly defensive, carefully scrutinized, media savvy response.

EsioTrotlove · 14/08/2024 16:49

Only read OP posts, so apologies if this has already been said; but Rachel Gunn is an academic specialising in social studies, who has lectured on gender politics in breakdancing. I think she is quite a capable dancer, but was making some sort of point in her performance for the purposes of her studies. A bit of a dick move (pun intended) if you think about all the young girls and women who would have loved to have taken her place.

ijustneedtokeepbreathing · 14/08/2024 16:49

Whether it's trolling or not, she took a place away from a woman or girl who deserved it much more than she did.

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:41

Porridgeislife · 14/08/2024 16:39

He’s hardly going to sh*t in his own sandwich. He’s only going to say good things about breaking because they need good publicity to get the sport taken seriously, and to keep himself in a job.

I know. I was arguing against his sentiment.

OP posts:
Porridgeislife · 14/08/2024 16:39

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:10

Nice that the breakdancing community are supportive. I read this, “Breaking is all about originality and bringing something new to the table and representing your country or region,” head judge Martin Gilian — known as MGbility — said at a press conference. “This is exactly what Raygun was doing. She got inspired by her surroundings, which in this case, for example, was a kangaroo.”**

But you can be original and still be good. When I was just watching clips, I liked the kangaroo thing and all that - I thought it was funny and quirky. I assumed she was a good dancer, adding in quirky moves to a skilled performance. But when I saw the whole of her performance I realised she is just a very mediocre amateur dancer. You can have original moves and still perform them with skill and flow and grace, but she did not do that. She was clunky and clumsy and slow and awkward. Most of her moves lacked technical expertise or skill or challenge. Being original does not preclude excellent execution, technical expertise or technically challenging moves. And that is where Raygun's defence of ' originality' , when performing at an elite level, falls down.

It rather looks like she has created this defence of ' originality' to enable her to justify her participation in something that she lacks real talent or skill for.

He’s hardly going to sh*t in his own sandwich. He’s only going to say good things about breaking because they need good publicity to get the sport taken seriously, and to keep himself in a job.

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:39

biscuitandcake · 14/08/2024 16:33

I don't think skin colour or class should be a limit. But there is an issue about what makes something/someone "good". The background of how breakdance developed is relevant - not that white people can't do it, but "getting a degree" in it is a different way to how the sport developed. I guess it gets into an argument about who "owns" the dance/sport.

I don't know, I am not sure I see it about as who 'owns it'. But there is something discomforting about a white, middle class person taking something that developed from another ethnic group's culture, and then seeking to redefine what 'good' looks like in that activity, apparently to enable her own participation in it when she has low talent and skill in this area.

OP posts:
seedsandseeds · 14/08/2024 16:38

By the same argument black people can’t participate in half of ballroom dancing dances. Or in tennis. Or even football. Which were developed by white upper class people. Are you for real? That’s such a racist argument

Because white people are so oppressed(!) 🙄

Porridgeislife · 14/08/2024 16:37

It’s worth pointing out she won an Oceania qualifier. A lot of sports offer continental spots for countries who are unlikely to qualify through a world championships or similar event. In Oceania these include table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics, fencing and football.

She’s apparently the best Australia AND New Zealand has to offer! Even more embarrassing.

biscuitandcake · 14/08/2024 16:33

DodoTired · 14/08/2024 16:24

By the same argument black people can’t participate in half of ballroom dancing dances. Or in tennis. Or even football. Which were developed by white upper class people. Are you for real? That’s such a racist argument

I don't think skin colour or class should be a limit. But there is an issue about what makes something/someone "good". The background of how breakdance developed is relevant - not that white people can't do it, but "getting a degree" in it is a different way to how the sport developed. I guess it gets into an argument about who "owns" the dance/sport.

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:33

Iwasafool · 14/08/2024 16:22

Well he was the head judge and he doesn't seem to want her head on a stick. She's certainly generated lots of publicity for breakdancing.

He's being nice. He still gave her zero points as she was not at an Olympic level (putting it kindly).

If you read the article from the Guardian, girl break dancers in Australia are devastated about what they see as the humiliation of this performance, have received hate and trolling as a result and are very worried about this having set them back massively, in terms of girls and women in breakdancing not being taken seriously, in what is already a very male dominated sport.

OP posts:
FiddlyDiddlyDee · 14/08/2024 16:32

DodoTired · 14/08/2024 16:24

By the same argument black people can’t participate in half of ballroom dancing dances. Or in tennis. Or even football. Which were developed by white upper class people. Are you for real? That’s such a racist argument

Didn't realise upper class white people were historically oppressed and had their culture appropriated by their oppressors.

EveSix · 14/08/2024 16:25

I usually err on the side of thinking people generally are sincere and act in good faith. Including Rachel Gunn. I've cringed so hard, cried with laughter and been so puzzled by this that I've stalked her old twitter and she seems genuinely committed to her work in promoting dance, culture and entertainment.

I can see how the Aussie selection process may have been a bit slapdash and excluded some breakers if there were no formal structures in place for organising and overseeing the qualifiers leading to a prohibitively narrow timeframe for registering interest and Olympic eligibility requirements included the need for proof of both citizenship and passport. Lots of people don't have those things to hand.

To me, she just looks like someone who is a bit out of shape but having a go, trying to get into 'the spirit' of the battle, leaning into the 'interpretive' and 'creative' aspects of the genre. But judging by her twitter, she's been doing it for years as PPs have pointed out so she clearly knows what's required. I feel for her. It's probably how I would look if I participated in a breaking battle... at a family barbecue or in a PE lesson against one of my pupils.

DataPup · 14/08/2024 16:25

Waitingfordoggo · 14/08/2024 14:39

😂 Quite a few people on Twitter saying she looks like their dog when it finds some shit to roll in 😂

I keep getting reels showing on Facebook which cut from dogs writhing around on the ground to raygun and back again.

DodoTired · 14/08/2024 16:24

seedsandseeds · 14/08/2024 16:13

Akin to white people claiming that their uncle's cat had visited Jamaica.

A total uncultured approach: I'm going to break dance, which was developed by black working class people by getting a degree in it.

By the same argument black people can’t participate in half of ballroom dancing dances. Or in tennis. Or even football. Which were developed by white upper class people. Are you for real? That’s such a racist argument

Iwasafool · 14/08/2024 16:22

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:10

Nice that the breakdancing community are supportive. I read this, “Breaking is all about originality and bringing something new to the table and representing your country or region,” head judge Martin Gilian — known as MGbility — said at a press conference. “This is exactly what Raygun was doing. She got inspired by her surroundings, which in this case, for example, was a kangaroo.”**

But you can be original and still be good. When I was just watching clips, I liked the kangaroo thing and all that - I thought it was funny and quirky. I assumed she was a good dancer, adding in quirky moves to a skilled performance. But when I saw the whole of her performance I realised she is just a very mediocre amateur dancer. You can have original moves and still perform them with skill and flow and grace, but she did not do that. She was clunky and clumsy and slow and awkward. Most of her moves lacked technical expertise or skill or challenge. Being original does not preclude excellent execution, technical expertise or technically challenging moves. And that is where Raygun's defence of ' originality' , when performing at an elite level, falls down.

It rather looks like she has created this defence of ' originality' to enable her to justify her participation in something that she lacks real talent or skill for.

Well he was the head judge and he doesn't seem to want her head on a stick. She's certainly generated lots of publicity for breakdancing.

HorizontalNotVertical · 14/08/2024 16:20

Iwasafool · 14/08/2024 15:41

There is something great about the hilarious entrants. I remember a skater who basically had to hold onto the rails round the rink in the winter Olympics years ago. Then there was Eddie the Eagle. Then there was the swimmer from I think Equatorial Guinea who was the slowest swimmer but won his heat as all the other swimmers did a false start. Loved that one.

Nice that the breakdancing community are supportive. I read this, “Breaking is all about originality and bringing something new to the table and representing your country or region,” head judge Martin Gilian — known as MGbility — said at a press conference. “This is exactly what Raygun was doing. She got inspired by her surroundings, which in this case, for example, was a kangaroo.”

At the risk of getting a bit serious about Eddie the Eagle and Eric the Eel 😂, I don't think these comparisons really hold water. Eddie the Eagle was no good at ski jumping but he was superb speed skier- one of the best in the world- trying to do something new. He didn't make ski jumping look ridiculous- if anything, he showed quite how dangerous and difficult it is.

Eric the Eel took part as part of a programme designed to widen participation by inviting nations which would not otherwise qualify- he had no delusions about his abilities. He had never swum in an Olympic size pool and didn't even have swimming trunk or goggles until the coach of another team gave him some. He was there to represent his country where there was nobody else to do it in the hope of bringing swimming to EG, and he succeeded in that 100% (and is now the national coach) as well as demonstrating how skewed the games necessarily are in favour of richer nations. He's a real hero.

None of that applies to Raygun, who comes from a rich nation with plenty of resources (and many better potential competitors) and made the whole activity appear ridiculous.

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:19

Atethehalloweenchocs · 14/08/2024 16:04

Is it always delusional to do something different? One thing I was really struck by in the gymnastics, which I always enjoy, is how same-y the routines were - between the gymnasts themselves and on each piece of equipment. I guess it is a risk assessment - is it worth doing something different to see if it shifts the norm? Gymnastics has changed massively in what it values since I was watching it as a kid. So, while this did not seem good to most people - and perhaps was misjudgement - I dont think that is always delusional.

You can do something different but still do it well.

She did something different but still executed it badly. She could have done an original dance that still had technical challenge, expertise and excellent execution.

Sorry, I am just not buying the ' but she was original'. argument. She was original and crap, not original and skilled.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2024 16:17

But you can be original and still be good.

This sums it up

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2024 16:17

Atethehalloweenchocs · 14/08/2024 16:09

I didnt forget. But if you look at gymnastics 20 year ago and today, there are massive differences between what is emphasized, valued and allowed. Even Simone Biles has said she is not a flexible as gymnasts from the past - but she obviously has other strengths which are incredible and which we value highly now.

Criteria, points etc dont just change. There is a reason they alter over time.

Gymnastics has a clear and well used process for submitting new moves to the code of points. They also reevaluate the COP every cycle, to guard against certain moves being over used. Olympics are the biggest deal for these competitors, there will be a certain amount of playing it safe to maximise their chances, but if you look at the medal winning performances, originality is clearly rewarded. Look at Biles on floor/vault or Nemour on UB.

FiddlyDiddlyDee · 14/08/2024 16:16

In my experience this happens quite frequently in dance scenes. There is always a few dancers who have been around for years who say and do the right things, know all the moves, but are actually not that good. They manage to get lots of kudos for their 'unique' style though, often teaching and trading off their reputation to make a living.

This is why I switched to sports, that's pretty clear cut. You can't bring your ego and narcissism along for the ride which you can do in creative pursuits.

Olympics is a whole other level though. The breakdance scene in Oz must be pretty toxic.

SweetTeaCup · 14/08/2024 16:15

Yes @Olivie12 - conflict of interest, that’s it exactly.

seedsandseeds · 14/08/2024 16:13

Akin to white people claiming that their uncle's cat had visited Jamaica.

A total uncultured approach: I'm going to break dance, which was developed by black working class people by getting a degree in it.

Raygunstun · 14/08/2024 16:10

Nice that the breakdancing community are supportive. I read this, “Breaking is all about originality and bringing something new to the table and representing your country or region,” head judge Martin Gilian — known as MGbility — said at a press conference. “This is exactly what Raygun was doing. She got inspired by her surroundings, which in this case, for example, was a kangaroo.”**

But you can be original and still be good. When I was just watching clips, I liked the kangaroo thing and all that - I thought it was funny and quirky. I assumed she was a good dancer, adding in quirky moves to a skilled performance. But when I saw the whole of her performance I realised she is just a very mediocre amateur dancer. You can have original moves and still perform them with skill and flow and grace, but she did not do that. She was clunky and clumsy and slow and awkward. Most of her moves lacked technical expertise or skill or challenge. Being original does not preclude excellent execution, technical expertise or technically challenging moves. And that is where Raygun's defence of ' originality' , when performing at an elite level, falls down.

It rather looks like she has created this defence of ' originality' to enable her to justify her participation in something that she lacks real talent or skill for.

OP posts:
Atethehalloweenchocs · 14/08/2024 16:09

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2024 16:05

Sports are competitions with clear criteria and codes of points. People seem to forget this.

I didnt forget. But if you look at gymnastics 20 year ago and today, there are massive differences between what is emphasized, valued and allowed. Even Simone Biles has said she is not a flexible as gymnasts from the past - but she obviously has other strengths which are incredible and which we value highly now.

Criteria, points etc dont just change. There is a reason they alter over time.

ZiriForGood · 14/08/2024 16:08

Marseillaise · 14/08/2024 16:00

Lacrosse would actually be a good Olympic sport - requires a lot of speed, skill and strategy. I wonder if it will stay after 28?

Probably won't stay. Not many countries play lacrosse.

And it will be another controversy, as the US is trying to sneak two US teams into 8 teams only competition, American and Native American.

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