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AIBU?

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To think this is fucking crazy

436 replies

itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 15:46

We’re en route to a holiday rental in France. I wasn’t sure if the pool was shared or not between other guests so emailed the owner to ask. This is his reply - which I put in to google translate
Could you tell me if sharing the swimming pool with us who occupy the ground floor bothers you and for what reason? Recently we refused the rental because the wife and the two young daughters were veiled; are you english or muslim? We do not want you to make the trip and see yourself refused access to our property for reasons of displaying religious beliefs which are very resented by the neighborhood.

Fuck Fuck Fuck
What the hell do I do?
I am not a Muslim.
I am also not a racist.

OP posts:
cassandre · 14/08/2024 00:14

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:55

The holiday is in France, where there is a burka ban, and the owner refuses service to burka wearing families.

Honestly I don't know why I'm still bothering to correct the misinformation, but ... no, you are wrong on two counts.

  • First, France has a ban on wearing burqas in public. There is no problem with wearing a burqa in a holiday flat.
  • Second, the owner states that he refuses service to women who are 'voilées'. In French, this does not mean women wearing burqas; this means women wearing headscarves. So he is refusing service to all Muslim women, not just those in burqas.

If the owner believed that it was illegal for him to rent his holiday flat to Muslim women, he presumably would have said so. Instead, he said that he doesn't rent to Muslims because it makes the neighbours uncomfortable.

RACISM.

raspberryberet7 · 14/08/2024 00:12

ImAFemaleVersionOfRoyKeane · 13/08/2024 15:48

I would NOT be stopping there!

This

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:55

Scirocco · 13/08/2024 23:53

I'm not sure what your point is?

The holiday is in France, where there is a burka ban, and the owner refuses service to burka wearing families.

User6874356 · 13/08/2024 23:54

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/08/2024 23:29

If she were to say the Israeli government were responsible it would be more reasonable.

Extremism from Muslim groups in France or elsewhere is neither the fault of Jews nor the Israeli government.

Scirocco · 13/08/2024 23:53

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:50

France has a burka ban, so there's that.

I'm not sure what your point is?

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:50

Scirocco · 13/08/2024 23:47

It's discrimination to refuse to provide a service to someone on the basis of disliking something about their religion, though.

France has a burka ban, so there's that.

Scirocco · 13/08/2024 23:47

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:36

It's not racist to dislike the prohibitions of a religion.

It's discrimination to refuse to provide a service to someone on the basis of disliking something about their religion, though.

cassandre · 13/08/2024 23:40

pinkstripeycat · 13/08/2024 23:03

It’s the law regardless of their views

What do you mean by 'it's the law' I wonder? Because no, refusing to rent a holiday flat to Muslim women who wear hijab is not 'the law' in France. 🙄Women staying on private property can legally wear whatever the hell they like.

Seriously, I despair, there is so much misinformation on this thread.

Dygger · 13/08/2024 23:39

You can leave a stinking review once you've had your holiday and are safely back home, OP. Meanwhile I entirely understand how the idea of spending your money and possibly having to rub shoulders during your precious holiday time with a racist has left you with a bad taste in your mouth.

I can't understand all those saying 'So what?' Surely most of us have friends or work colleagues or neighbours from different ethnic backgrounds — some of them Muslim? If this host has a problem with any of them because of their religion or ethnicity then I have an issue with the host. Shrugging and saying 'so what, forget it' as so many have here is condoning racism.

Oodiks · 13/08/2024 23:36

It's not racist to dislike the prohibitions of a religion.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/08/2024 23:29

AelitaQueenofMars · 13/08/2024 20:53

Well it’s a very, very strange way to not say it.

If she were to say the Israeli government were responsible it would be more reasonable.

ILoveToCleanSaidNooneEver · 13/08/2024 23:18

I wouldn't knowingly pay money to someone who was racist, but if I'd already paid for something, and knew there was no way I could get my money back, I'd definitely be doing what I paid for. Then when I left, I'd send an email explaining what I really thought.

Try not to let it ruin your holiday OP. You had no way of knowing this prior to booking.

pinkstripeycat · 13/08/2024 23:03

EllieLeo · 13/08/2024 15:53

I find it very easy to believe this is true. France has a very chequered history with religious head/face coverings - you can read up on it easily.

Their attitude is not uncommon in parts of France hence them being so free with expressing it - I would not be giving them my custom knowing they hold these views but understand you’re in a tight spot as on your way there.

It’s the law regardless of their views

Frogpole · 13/08/2024 22:51

bows101 · 13/08/2024 20:12

I don't know why you are offended by it. I am not 'veiled' but my best friend is. And going most places with her / her family is a bloody nightmare.
There is a certain level of importance that she expects EVERYONE to accommodate and obey by.
Her family are notorious for booking stuff, then moaning it's not private / there are other people there. French are known for being more blunt. Hes probably had a bad experience and is sick of it.

If that's how you talk about your "best friend" behind her back, I dread to imagine what you say about people you don't like...

PigOnStiIts · 13/08/2024 22:19

We’ll go but OP I just came back from Arcachon in France where the pool was shared and they were absolute pains about it so PLEASE read every rule left out, they were so domineering and aggressive towards us. We felt very unwelcome.

Makingchocolatecake · 13/08/2024 22:13

Tell him you are Muslim and see if he cancels it?! 😆 Then you will know if he is being racist or just following French custom.

TomeTome · 13/08/2024 22:06

BargingOnBy · 13/08/2024 20:20

My understanding is that the property owner has merely said “no one who isn’t prepared to share the shared pool”

I think what OP said they said was

Recently we refused the rental because the wife and the two young daughters were veiled; are you english or muslim? We do not want you to make the trip and see yourself refused access to our property for reasons of displaying religious beliefs which are very resented by the neighborhood.

nothing to do with the pool

cassandre · 13/08/2024 21:56

Yes, that's great advice, and very generous.

itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 21:54

Scirocco · 13/08/2024 19:28

@itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow as a Muslim woman, thank you for recognising this man's bigotry and feeling in your heart that it's not ok for someone to hold such views.

At this late stage, don't disappoint your children by cancelling their holiday. Go, let them enjoy it. Cancelling won't achieve anything - he'd keep the money and he wouldn't care that someone was offended, so you'd end up with no holiday and disappointed children for nothing. Save all the messages, maybe even ask him to clarify what his objection is, and then you can report him to whatever booking site and monitoring organisations he's involved with. What he's doing is discrimination and may be illegal as well as bigoted, so the relevant parties should be made aware.

Islam says if we see injustice, we should try to challenge it with our actions; if we can't, then we should try to challenge it with words; and if we can't, then we should challenge it in our hearts. If all you can do is to recognise that it isn't right for the someone to discriminate against people because of their faith, that's actually a lot, because many people in the world don't see it as a problem.

(I wonder what the guy would make of me... White British hijabi who speaks French)

Thank you. This is exactly the advice that I needed.

OP posts:
Bobbybobbins · 13/08/2024 21:52

What if the OP was Muslim though? What would she be expected to do, not go on holiday because of her religious beliefs? Racist host. Secularity is a good excuse to exercise racist views.

cassandre · 13/08/2024 21:50

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you! Finding new accommodation in peak season is going to be hellishly difficult if you're already en route, so if I were you, I would probably go with the suggestion @EnidSpyton made: staying chez monsieur le raciste as planned, but then reporting the hell out of him afterward, and leaving him the worst possible review.

I love France, speak French and have done some academic work on French feminism. I understand the importance of laïcité/secularism and so on. But that message is 100% racist. I'm shocked by how many posts on this thread are trying to minimise the racism.

Just because anti-Muslim racism is common in France does not make it OK. The French law against wearing full facial veils applies only in public, not on someone's private property. And the word 'voilée' (veiled) which the man used in his message does not necessarily refer to the burqa or niqab. 'Le voile' often just means headscarf or hijab. A veil that covers the whole face is 'le voile intégral’. This man won't rent to Muslims, period. And he says his neighbours don't like Muslims. He's a racist, pure and simple. Undoubtedly votes for the Rassemblement National.

I've just returned from an Airbnb in Marseille where our host happened to be a lovely Muslim woman (as we discovered when we arrived). I guess that's the difference between Marseille and rural Provence...

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 21:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

But how would you feel to turn up to your expensive, long awaited summer holiday and be told you were going to be restricted in the times you could use the communal pool because there were Muslim male guests who felt they could not share a pool with women not in their family? I would be upset not to have been warned in advance. It wouldn't surprise me if this host has had issues with this in the past- there have been several posters who have had this happen to them, they've been fine with it but I would be extremely disappointed, and frankly feel that my holiday had been ruined. Not because I hate Muslims, but because on holiday I want to be free to use the pool when I want to!

Bunny44 · 13/08/2024 21:30

On another note I live in an area of London which has a large Muslim minority. The local council ran a regular women only swim hour at the leisure centre along with free taster swim lessons, which I went to and many muslim women came covered up and had a really great time. They ran this sort of thing to help with integration and also improve swimming competency in populations where women often don't swim due to feeling uncomfortable in mixed environments.

I personally thought it was lovely and a great initiative to encourage integration.

Thinking you can ban the veil just makes people feel unwelcome and (during the research in my dissertation) in some cases led some minorities feel like they were choosing between their culture and (because it is a cultural and not a religious symbol ultimately) their nationality. Many may not have chosen to wear the veil at all if the government hadn't made such a big deal about it.

Anyway fascinating issue with so many complexities, but as mentioned before these hosts are just thinly veiled (pardon the pun) racists.

NonsuchCastle · 13/08/2024 21:29

itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 15:58

This is what I am worried about.

Reply: Pas probleme, personne n'est voilee. On etait curieux quant a la piscine, c'est tout. Merci.
Cordialement

AccountCreateUsername · 13/08/2024 21:25

Blondiebeachbabe · 13/08/2024 18:14

What a load of drama over nothing. You don't fit into the demographic they aren't comfortable with, so no drama, just enjoy your holiday.

Some people aren’t comfortable around bigotry [even] if they aren’t the target of it. Just cos you might be, doesn’t mean everyone is.

Hopefully OP will have a nice holiday and also report to the booking site and warn like minded people off that place / village.