AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

The Sex Matters campaign group did a briefing on the issue of DSD athletes yesterday on twitter. They had input from Dr Emma Hilton, a developmental biologist as well as Sharron Davies (a leading campaigner for many years about this issue) and others. All experts in this area. It is incredibly clear that Imane and Lin Yu-Ting are biologically male. There is no confusion or grey area. The BBC and many other journalists are doing a very poor job of understanding and explains the issues. The briefing was very informative and easy to understand and I really recommend that anyone interested in this to find it on twitter.

@OrangeSlices998 ‘We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm’

Literally this 👏

That article is such a stretch that whoever wrote it should be competing in Olympic yoga.

Can you provide evidence of chromosome testing showing xx?

Thought not.

Why are some sportsmen’s wishes to win being put above all hardworking sportswomen’s physical safety and their right to have a fair competition? Women competing should be able to expect an opponent who has been vetted appropriately by the governing bodies for their sport. This is so far from that. Where are the Olympic ideals?

Any sports governing bodies which still have exclusion criteria that doesn’t protect women competitors from male competition in their sport, simply shows that they don’t care about women’s sports. It’s so sexist that they haven’t addressed this properly. This issue has been current for years now across all sports. There’s no excuse for lax or muddled rules on it. It’s shamefully unfair and could be very physically dangerous or fatal to women.

Sex is binary. Every single human is either male or female. There is no third or subsequent sex.

Imane doesn't have DSD or any other intersex condition. She's cis female.

What a load of nonsense.

there are two options penis or vagina , male or female , woman or man

Male = penis = man

female = vagina = woman

it's simple.

play the Olympics in the nude as it was originally intended, and no one will be confused.

Im a little confused how this is all only coming to light now. Khelif competed in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics as a female boxer.

Thankyou it's an interesting article. I think what's clear is that for a very small number of people sex definitely isn't binary. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting these individuals through invasive testing when they suffer from a condition that must be horrible to live with. I can sort of understand that it's easier for the IOC to just say they can identify themselves. Especially when they don't have clear evidence that they would be on a level playing field in the mens category. That said I think it's pretty clear that some do have an advantage in the female category and as were talking about a sport where you punch each other there is a safety consideration. They seem to be overrepresented in women's sports.

Having watched some of the womens boxing I'm not convinced that most of them aren't doping with T and the IOC know this. Are they routinely tested? Because I'd read that they weren't. Maybe the IOC justify it because they know full well the one element you can control (T levels) are in fact on a relatively even playing field.

I feel really sorry on a personal level for IK and unlike some posters here have no reason to doubt that she wasn't raised as a girl and identifies as a woman. She may have very female appearing body parts, why would you identify as male in that case? I don't really think there is an answer other than putting them through some sort of testing but again wouldn't some of that be subjective ? I really don't know what the answer is.

Please would you link to the expert and the research?

This article seems perfectly designed to provide a retreat position for the thousands of people online swearing blind that the 2 boxers are XX females, for if and when that position becomes untenable.

It clearly says in that article, as the clearly stated opinion of an expert in the matter, that sex is not a binary characteristic. That there are many more individuals around that do not fit into the male/ female sex boxes that we think.
But so many people do not accept this. Even doctors who have treated individuals with DSDs are fixated on the binary system and they have been performing surgeries on people with DSDs, that were later found unnecessary, as per later scientific research.
Hopefully all this mess will result in further education of the general population on this.

I agree.

When I watch women's elite sports I want to see the best female (XX) athletes competing.

I don't want to see who has the best pharmacist or who has found the best loophole to climb through.

I want to see women athletes at their best. I don't want to see XY athletes deliberately underperforming/under-training to fly under the radar competing against XX athletes.

When we watch XY athletes competing as women we, the viewers, are being cheated. We are watching mediocre male athletes.

The testing shows these boxers have XY chromosomes and high levels of testosterone therefore they are male.

Did you read about the male puberty these men go through?

Medical science cannot be a spectrum. Medical science is not feelings. Either they are male or female.
Women have fought long and hard ( and the battle isn't won yet), to be treated equally as men. Lets not let it destroyed by men pretending to be women

They are in different categories so it will be two women's gold medals taken by males.

Good grief.

Why do these people who are obviously male want to be women...so they can cheat with their advantages. Shouldn't be allowed but society is geared towards giving men of all types advantages over women. I see casper a man listen to him, he grew up a boy, he calls women and girls them and they when it slips.

These men are pushing women aside why do some women fawn over them?

I just hope that they get their medals without actually killing an opponent or causing them lifelong damage.

The article is quite informative but grasps at two straws:

That xy doesn't equal male ("If you looked at my patients, they look like women. They are married to men! "🙄). It deliberately mixes up biological sex with social identity

That xy chromosomes don't necessarily confer an advantage and there's not enough data to make a decision. While I fully agree that DSD athletes must be looked at on a case by case basis, it's obvious that athletes that make it to the Olympics don't have one of the more debilitating DSDs (like xy Swyer syndrome = osteopenia and no puberty without hormone therapy). Even males with CAIS are and have historically been overrepesented in women's sports

The article's conclusion that "it's complex, we don't have enough information, even the scientists are confused" is intellectually dishonest

And ain't it funny how the two of them are now facing off for gold.

Fucking travesty.

If that’s your take from the article you haven’t understood it.

The XY DSDs that result in people’s bodies developing along the female pattern are irrelevant here. These boxers most likely have the same DSD as Caster Semenya and are males, having gone through a male puberty. Horrible for them, if they thought they were girls until about age 12, but letting them beat up women on an international stage is disproportionate compensation.

If you still don’t understand the science look up Emma Hilton’s writing. She’s great.

Edited for autocarrot error.

Funny how they've quoted Emma Hilton but don't say she thinks the IOC need to act as a matter of urgency to test the two boxers so that women can be protected from harm. She has quite strong feelings about it so I think it's unlikely she failed to mention it.

Why would a developmental biologist have such a strong opinion that the IOC's failure to act could harm women? Perhaps because she knows that whilst DSD's can be quite complicated but doesn't think this case is one of those that are quite complicated. Both boxers have obviously benefitted from male puberty.