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Original poster

AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

245 replies

GenderRow · 09/08/2024 06:22

This article on the BBC website is the most informative explanation of DSD I have read:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp

Before reading this, I was certain that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting had male bodies. Having read the BBC article, I can see that it is by no means definite.
I feel very sorry for both of these 2 boxers that the International Olympic Committee have failed to develop proper testing procedures that would determine whether having a DSD would give an unfair advantage in the female boxing category. The IOC should have investigated this issue properly for Khelif and Yu-ting before they were allowed to compete in the Olympics. It is such a shame that these boxers have the humiliation of us all discussing their intimate medical details.

Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif

What does science tell us about boxing’s gender row? - BBC News

Research is shedding light on different chromosomal make-ups and what advantages they may bring to sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
FOJN · 09/08/2024 09:36

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:25

Neither are trans women. Most people think they are. I thought they were until I read further. That's why I'm so disgusted.

Most people do not think they are trans at all. Most people are intelligent enough to know that a DSD and trans identity are two very different things.

I can accept there are some people who may be confused because they are actually not that interested but "most people"? No.

The discussion is about whether the boxers in question are male. The "gender test" requested by the IBA and carried out by an accredited lab says they have XY chromosomes. They were disqualified from the world championships last year for failing to meet eligibility criteria for the women's competition. They have not pursued an appeal with the fully independent CSA. The CSA tribunal process and outcome is made public.

TheKeatingFive · 09/08/2024 09:36

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 09:35

@LostittoBostik

And if wanting fairness and safety for females is "far right" then the left are truly lost.

Exactly

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 09:35

@LostittoBostik

And if wanting fairness and safety for females is "far right" then the left are truly lost.

TheKeatingFive · 09/08/2024 09:34

heathspeedwell · 09/08/2024 09:29

These three men won the 800m gold, silver and bronze at the Rio Olympics. Women were told we were being racist for pointing out they look like men. Then it was confirmed that they all have 46 XY 5ARD and did, in fact go through male puberty. Women had to fight to change the rules to exclude these men from running.

But instead of learning from their mistakes, the IOC has made things even worse for women by allowing males into the boxing ring.

And those men got to keep their medals. The rightful winners were never compensated.

StuntNun · 09/08/2024 09:34

Anyone claiming that Khelif and Yu-Ting are "cis female" is categorically wrong. Two separate chromosome tests taken a year apart and assessed by different accredited labs showed that both have XY chromosomes. You can argue that they're women all you want but they are unequivocally male.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 09:34

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:26

@GargoylesofBeelzebub trans women are a totally different point... of course I believe in female sports being protected, but the ways this situation has been abused has disgusted me

How has it been abused by GC people? You're the only one bringing up trans.

The issue is very clearly and always has been about fairness and safety for female sports.

CatusFlatus · 09/08/2024 09:33

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 07:37

It clearly says in that article, as the clearly stated opinion of an expert in the matter, that sex is not a binary characteristic. That there are many more individuals around that do not fit into the male/ female sex boxes that we think.
But so many people do not accept this. Even doctors who have treated individuals with DSDs are fixated on the binary system and they have been performing surgeries on people with DSDs, that were later found unnecessary, as per later scientific research.
Hopefully all this mess will result in further education of the general population on this.

Where does it state that sex isn't binary?

Moreofthesamenothanks · 09/08/2024 09:30

AssassinsEyebrow · 09/08/2024 09:04

Where's the evidence that you're female?

Show quote history

Have you heard of those pesky things called sex chromosomes, you know the ones xx or xy or xxy. But the thing is having a Y means male, when someone doesn't have a Y they are female. Easy enough to test and prove in a simple saliva swab

heathspeedwell · 09/08/2024 09:29

(Just noticed it didn't post before).

heathspeedwell · 09/08/2024 09:29

These three men won the 800m gold, silver and bronze at the Rio Olympics. Women were told we were being racist for pointing out they look like men. Then it was confirmed that they all have 46 XY 5ARD and did, in fact go through male puberty. Women had to fight to change the rules to exclude these men from running.

But instead of learning from their mistakes, the IOC has made things even worse for women by allowing males into the boxing ring.

AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?
Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/08/2024 09:28

But only what I'd expect from the BBC, run as they are by the metropolitan chatterati consumed by whatever the latest "rightthink" is perceived to be

purpleme12 · 09/08/2024 09:26

@GenderRow thanks for posting this
It was an interesting read
I didn't know about it all
It doesn't sound straightforward

Naunet · 09/08/2024 09:26

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:24

The article and their personal histories.

Where does the article support your claim that they are ‘cis’ females? What evidence do you have of their histories? It must be an awful lot to have been enough to change your position on being GC?

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:26

@GargoylesofBeelzebub trans women are a totally different point... of course I believe in female sports being protected, but the ways this situation has been abused has disgusted me

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 09:25

OrangeSlices998 · 09/08/2024 09:14

We are a binary sex. Most of the individuals are infertile, therefore their DSD is an anomaly not proof of a 3rd sex. Some people are born deaf or blind, that doesn’t mean we as a species aren’t typically born with sight and hearing.

Show quote history

True, there are deaf and blind individuals. Adjustments for them and a category in Olympics are well knoen.
Nobody is mentioning a third sex, but that some individuals do not fit the full definition of any. Intersex has been used, which is not a third sex.

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:25

Neither are trans women. Most people think they are. I thought they were until I read further. That's why I'm so disgusted.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 09:24

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:21

They're both cis women and the way the situation has been abused the GC lobby is absolutely disgusting. And a sign of how close to the far right GC campaigning has got.
I was actually fairly GC until the last fortnight and this has pushed me right back towards the centre.

Is this trans boxer GC? Or is this nothing to do with trans and all to do with keeping biological males out of female sport?

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13701255/amp/Hergie-Bacyadan-female-boxer-identifies-man-calls-fighters-fail-gender-tests-banned-Imane-Khelif-Lin-Yu-ting-Angela-Carini-Paris-Olympics.html

Igneococcus · 09/08/2024 09:24

Where's the evidence that you're female?
That's Maggie Chapman level dimwittery.

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:24

The article and their personal histories.

Naunet · 09/08/2024 09:22

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:21

They're both cis women and the way the situation has been abused the GC lobby is absolutely disgusting. And a sign of how close to the far right GC campaigning has got.
I was actually fairly GC until the last fortnight and this has pushed me right back towards the centre.

Evidence?

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 09:21

perfectlyann · 09/08/2024 09:07

hey @MushMonster have you heard about sex chromosomes and how they work? 🤣

No, have you?

LostittoBostik · 09/08/2024 09:21

They're both cis women and the way the situation has been abused the GC lobby is absolutely disgusting. And a sign of how close to the far right GC campaigning has got.
I was actually fairly GC until the last fortnight and this has pushed me right back towards the centre.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 09:21

AssassinsEyebrow · 09/08/2024 09:04

Where's the evidence that you're female?

Show quote history

laughing at this.

Is this like Montgomery's 'what would you do if your mother failed a gender eligibility test'? Logic is not a strong suit for some such as Montgomery. But I laugh when I see this asked on MUMSnet.

Babewhat · 09/08/2024 09:19

We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm.

This should be repeated on every page of this thread, and every other post on this topic.

This is exactly the point. Women aren’t support animals, and we aren’t the ‘non-men’ category.

@MNHQ it possible to pin this to the top of threads about this topic?

aladderformoths · 09/08/2024 09:18

AssassinsEyebrow · 09/08/2024 09:04

Where's the evidence that you're female?

Show quote history

Seriously? You could not more clearly show you don’t have a case!

But being as you asked, I went through female puberty, had periods, got pregnant and birthed two children who I breastfed. I am currently going through perimenopause.