AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

The irony is that so many gender critical people protest that people aren't trans simply because they don't look stereotypically male /female or have stereotypical male/female interests...and yet the same GC critical people using stereotypes to justify bullying athletes such as Imane.

Oh stop it. The GC position is that muscular, masculine, feminine, tall, short, sporty, clever, gentle, strong or not, women are all women because they are female.

Equally men are men because they are male.

Men and women are physically different. I'm convinced women can visually differentiate because we're evolved to do so for our own safety. Being able to tell someone is a man does not mean we're easily confused by masculine women.

A female bricklayer is a woman, a male florist is a man.

Those hips don't lie.

Except some people think that they do....

"The irony is that so many gender critical people protest that people aren't trans simply because they don't look stereotypically male /female or have stereotypical male/female interests...and yet the same GC critical people using stereotypes to justify bullying athletes such as Imane."

This is a misrepresentation of the what has been happening.

Firstly, no one has mentioned either of these two boxers 'interests'. And don't forget, there are two male boxers at least involved in this current situation.

And the discussion is not about looks. It is about recognising male cues on a male body that has experienced virilisation. Gait, knees, long bone ratios, q angles, muscular and vascular definition that is being achieved in boxing etc.

Those are signs of male virilisation. Or do you think that this is just about looking feminine?

Your understanding of the people you seem to be disparaging here in the quoted paragraph is lacking. And it seems you are not quite as informed by science as you seem to believe you are.

Quite. A male skeletal structure is very different to a female one because a female skeleton is designed around the ability to give birth (irrespective of whether they actually do)

If Tyson Fury could produce a passport saying female he would be eligible to compete against women under their current rules.

I think this is a tremendously important point. People (apart from actually right wing crazies) have no issue with inter sex conditions. Before any of this was linked to the trans cause there was a lot of sympathy for people with intersex conditions and also a growing understanding.

However, once campaign groups decided that DSD was the perfect crowbar to open everything up to self ID then everything became a mess. There are some very vocal intersex activists who are tremendously pissed off about being classified as a third sex by transactivists groups in the name of trying to prove that that sex is a spectrum.

Gender is a spectrum. Sex is binary. Express your gender how ever you like- no one should have the right to stop you or be hateful about your choices. But don’t attempt to force everyone to believe the lie that sex is a spectrum. It causes such harm and confusion and ultimately is destructive to everyone involved.

One particularly pernicious bit of untruth is the idea that there is truly any such thing as full hermaphroditism (a term used to insult and abuse intersex people for years). No one is born with two fully working sets of sex organs. It’s a fetish fantasy put about in 1920s Germany which has spread from there.

Male people, who have been through male puberty, have a unique hip to shoulder ratio. Women's hips widen at puberty to allow for potential child birth.

Male hips don't widen, so the male thigh bones go straight down to the knee, while the female thigh bones come down at an angle. This means that there is a very obvious male 'gait' and 'female' gait when walking.

Even from a distance, when you have no idea of someone's clothes or facial features, you can tell if they are men or women because of their gait.

You can tell from watching videos of Khelif walk that he has a male gait, which is proof of male puberty.

There's the male behaviour too. Any extremely masculine looking woman would be going out of her way to prove to her competitors that she didn't have unfair advantage, would immediately do a cheek swab and make it public because she'd think of others, not just herself. Wouldn't gaslight and belittle women for raising concerns or wanting fair competition given the piss poor gender zealotry position of the IOC.

Lots of evidence Khelif is socialized as male

But honestly masculine women look nothing like men (skeletal ratios etc). So it wouldn't happen anyway.

Because they allowed a group of activists to convince them to change their policy in the late 90s. Those activists convinced them to prioritise inclusion based on philosophy rather than using physical science based criteria only.

To change now would mean that for over 25 years, the IOC would have to admit that they have discriminated against the female half of the population. That even their celebrated achievement of having 50 % female athletes at this Olympics may not have really been reached. Their whole basis for ‘fairness’ will have been shown to be false.

This era of the Olympic Games will not stand up well in history. But they cannot accept that now and like so many powerful male led organisations that makes money for those already powerful people, they will try to deny it until it is clear that no one believes them.

That boxer has XY and ,male level testosterone. They have a body which has unmistakeably gone through male puberty. This is not a tall, muscular woman's body, its a male's body.

The IOC accept a passport that says female to get into a female competition. That is no evidence at all of being female. And its the only evidence you have IK is female against all the other evidence. It means that even if there was a genetic test showing IK was of the male sex, not even a DSD of the male sex but a regular ole' male of the male sex, they would still be eligible to fight in the women's competition under IOC rules. If Tyson Fury could produce a passport saying female he would be eligible to compete against women under their current rules. That is how poor the IOC's eligibility standards are in women's sport. Let that sink in. You are seeking to defend a simply indefensible eligibility rule to get into Olympic women's competitions.
Boxing authorities that had more stringent sex testing have disallowed these boxers. Let that sink in too.

It's deeply offensive to all women to accuse Imane of dishonesty about her sex because to some people she looks masculine (tall & muscular, not unusual for an athlete). Fatima Whitbread must be so relieved she's not competing now.The irony is that so many gender critical people protest that people aren't trans simply because they don't look stereotypically male /female or have stereotypical male/female interests...and yet the same GC critical people using stereotypes to justify bullying athletes such as Imane

It’s not because IK looks masculine. There are lots of masculine-looking women in sport. It wasn’t because Semenya looked masculine either. It’s because they give every impression of being male. Not masculine, male. It was that that made other competitors and coaches suspicious and which led to the sex tests which showed that they had XY chromosomes and an unfair advantage (high testosterone).

Sorry meant to quote you.

This is quite good

Yes.

Don’t forget Banda in the Zambian football team. And Racheal Kundananji. Both who the Zambian Football organisation decided not to put forward for sex testing because they would fail so didn’t put them in the team when one competition tried to protect female sports. I wish FIFA would protect women’s sports too. But so far they have been very weak.

Yes, they're not allowed to participate in the African version of the Euros.

Imane doesn't have DSD or any other intersex condition. She's cis female.

There's no such thing as "cis" and even if there was, Khelif has XY chromosomes, so a male DSD. So no.

I read the article and found the scientific explanations interesting. But I think there is an element of gaslighting here.

The article explains that simply testing for XY isn’t 100% conclusive. That some XYs won't have SRY and won’t produce testosterone or go through male puberty. Which I get. But we have eyes!! These 2 boxers clearly have gone through male puberty, clearly have plenty of testosterone and so it’s highly unlikely that they are in the extremely rare group of individuals who don’t have SRY so it’s a moot point.

The IOC are not interested in the science though. They are not interested in nuance. I don’t understand why they are being so closed-minded on this issue.

Who do you believe is needed to ‘verify’ the tests in your opinion?

The IOC? Why would they? They have explicitly chosen to prioritise inclusion over female athlete’s needs for fairness and safety. And have done since they dropped sex testing in the end of the 90s, to specifically allow these male athletes to compete in the name of inclusion.

So, not the IOC.

If the tests were not accurate, both these athletes could have appealed and the IBA would have paid the majority of their costs to do so. They didn’t.

After the Olympics, where will these athletes compete? Because they are still banned from the IBA games.

Who else do you believe needs to verify the tests?

The tests undergone are the ONLY relevant information on Khelif's sex.

They concluded

XY
Advantage over women
Disqualified from female competition

These tests were not appealed
They were not repeated

So our only information has not been refuted.

If Khelif / IOC want to clear this up, they can do another test and make the results public.

Reasons I think Khelif is male? Observable reality (hip to shoulder ratio, reach, etc, male secondary sexual characteristics) plus several failed sex tests, done in accredited labs, plus the fact those sex tests were not challenged in an open, independent tribunal, plus the fact there's been no attempt now to do a cheek swab sex test or blood test which would shut the whole debate down.

If so much was resting on me proving I'm female I'd being doing a cheek swab straight away.

Regarding Imane, this is all speculation, nothing else. The test results people keep referring to are contested, they haven't been verified.

Two separate independent WADA and CAS accredited labs carried out the tests.

The boxers did not appeal and there is a letter with Khelif's signature on it saying they accepted the ban.

There is no doubt over the tests.

Nope, not speculation.

Where's the evidence - the blood tests that showed XY and sporting advantage

You don't like them - tough luck, they are proof, carried out by an independent lab.

We're not banging on the boxer's appearance, because that is irrelevant.

We are focusing on scientific proof - which you want to wave away because you don't like what it's saying.

“What’s this absolute obsession with shoehorning two male people into female sport!”

Don’t forget Banda in the Zambian football team. And Racheal Kundananji. Both who the Zambian Football organisation decided not to put forward for sex testing because they would fail so didn’t put them in the team when one competition tried to protect female sports. I wish FIFA would protect women’s sports too. But so far they have been very weak.

OK, so where is your proof that Imane hasn't gone through female puberty or had periods?

And mentioning the contested test she underwent pre Olympics isn't proof.

Many people getting expectedly het-up about my replies but you're all missing my points, which are to point out flaws in your own logic. (Many press outlets are contributing to this.)

Regarding Imane, this is all speculation, nothing else. The test results people keep referring to are contested, they haven't been verified.

Without the test results all accusers have to go on is her physical appearance.

It's deeply offensive to all women to accuse Imane of dishonesty about her sex because to some people she looks masculine (tall & muscular, not unusual for an athlete). Fatima Whitbread must be so relieved she's not competing now.

The irony is that so many gender critical people protest that people aren't trans simply because they don't look stereotypically male /female or have stereotypical male/female interests...and yet the same GC critical people using stereotypes to justify bullying athletes such as Imane.

While there are legitimate safety & fairness concerns in gender-segregated sports, doubling-down on gender-segregation isn't the way to resolve them.

Note also how I don't resort to insults & slurs to defend my points.

I encourage people to not take opposing educated views as personal attacks - or to assume the holder of them is stupid - because they may not be immediately understood. I encourage people to do more than read sensationalist headlines and articles which fan the culture war flames. And I encourage people to suspend their own views for a time to give themselves the space to consider that the logic they're using may be flawed, and that they be basing their judgements on falsehoods and not facts.

Having birthed a child is incontrovertible evidence of being female.

This does not in any way imply that a woman who has not given birth is not a woman.

Elite sport is not about being kind and giving everyone a go.

If the cheek swab test was used, coaches, sports bodies, parents would be using it from early on. It wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone at the Olympic Games.

If you have XY chromosomes and can't/won't cut it competing in the male category then elite sport is not for you. Yes, this will also exclude some potential athletes who derive no benefit from having XY chromosomes.

The binary approach is for elite sport. This is not about how people should live their lives outside of sport.

OMG! Another one! What’s this absolute obsession with shoehorning two male people into female sport! The evidence is obvious for anyone with functioning eyes. Moreover, they have XY chromosomes. Interestingly, the ‘ooh, but they’re women’ group seem to have now largely accepted this - but have, as a consequence, moved onto Swyers and CAIS, all in a desperate attempt to squeeze them into female boxing 🙄

They’ve gone through male puberty so don’t have CAIS or Swyers. Ooh, but it’s complicated, see? No, it’s not. This looks like another example of people with DSDs being used to, basically, cheat at female sports - with their consent, of course. They bloody well know they’re male.