F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

@ednakenneth "Grammar school just not only being a great education but brownie points when they put it on their CV."

Evidence for this, please?

It's sad they have to take a test at 10 years old but when that's the way it is. I live here in the west midlands and we're one of a few areas who still have the test. The year my daughter took it over 5,000 children took it. They come from all over . They use to come from the Welsh border but that has now stopped since they brought in catchment areas.
Grammar school just not only being a great education but brownie points when they put it on their CV.

Agree to all of your comments, OP. We're in the same boat 🙁and from some of the things you've said, it sounds like you're possibly in the same area.

It's a shitty system that does not test kids' true abilities, but their aptitude to understand material a year + ahead, learn it all in a short space of time (on top of school, activities, sports, rest, fun etc.), and to answer questions ridiculously quickly.

Another parent told me that many kids from nearby private schools sit "our" test, as prep for one they sit much later, for a well known private grammar, but have no intention of ever attending our local school. This pushes pass marks even more😡.

What really pissed me off, is that yes, it's a selective school but local kids' attendance of our local grammar has now dropped to 30%. A middle system, where the school is still selective but prioritised local kids, would be much more palatable.

You say in another post that your experience of grammars is that your brother went there. So very out of date then. If you believe that only Medicine and Law count as degrees, you are very misguided. Of course, destinations vary by grammar but in the two that I have had children study in a significant number did go on to study the most competitive courses at the best unversities for those subjects and many got four A stars at ALevel. Maybe you should look at the stats for the grades you need to study Computer Science at Manchester or Economics at LSE. You may be surprised.

Well done you, I agree with you.

Maybe if more parents sent their kids to these local schools , the reputation would change and we would have a mix of levels.
I have one brother who went to comp- he was average in academic and another brother who went to grammar who was top of the class gifted. It was actually the brother that went to the comp that did better after third level. He had much more confidence , and belief in himself and he is now acting CEO of a big company. The other brother who is gifted did well too but he was lacking on confidence.
Education is very important but so are social skills, confidence , communication skills. I’m hoping to get my children to a well rounded education setting .

Family dynamics are extremely important in a child’s development.

@Isseywith3witchycats OK so I don't do this as a rule and I know you must not care rather than not know, but doesn't it even give you slight twitches when you spell I as i and write with zero punctuation? Especially when saying how easy you found grammar school work?

OP, don't suppose there are religious secondaries you could consider? I'm sure not everyone in them will be religious and many of them are great. Isn't he sitting the tests in a few weeks? TBH I think it's too late to do anything if so. I'd give him some exam tips rather than concentrating too much on content. Mine would be:

1. Read questions carefully to the very end, and underline key instructions.

2. Jot workings for interim stages of multi step maths problems and/or draw the Q as a diagram.

3. Move on if you're stuck after 15-20 secs thinking time, mark the Q clearly to flag it as unfinished, and come back later. Often, answering other Qs will give inspiration.

4. Answer every question.

5. Start with the Qs you like best.

6. In VR and NVR papers, flick your eyes over the other choices and especially if there's a very similar option as an answer, identify why it ISN'T that. Sometimes there'll be a really subtle thing that's been missed.

Good luck to him but honestly I reckon a lot of the 'failures' will be messing up due to rushing, not reading things carefully or not paying attention. My DS told me that a child had not listened carefully to the instructions and had missed a whole section of a paper; when the end came he piped up 'should I start this now?' - probably shafted his whole attempt.

And although not 11+, when marking assessments in the school where I work I can tell you it's insane the number of children who do things like find the biggest number, rather than find the biggest EVEN number, which is what's been asked for, because they've read 'Find the biggest...' and not carried on to the end of the sentence, even though 'even' is in caps and bold!

It’s been 30 years since I left school, but I did the 11+ and passed it. No prep done.

Despite passing, I still wasn’t able to get a place at the grammar school as places were limited and I lived further away than other kids. And to add insult to injury, I ended up with a place at my mom’s second choice of comprehensive school, which she wasn’t happy about (she even appealed).

However, I still did very well at school. I was in the top sets for all core subjects, did well in my GCSE’s and have done ok for myself in life. So in the grand scheme of things it wasn’t the end of the world.

And you don’t think one single test when they are ten to determine if they are like that or not is an issue?

There’s been a flip where I am where the incredibly poor comps are now being pulled up by the kids who traditionally would have got in to grammar.
however, the reputation sticks and you get faces pulled when you say where your kids are going and have to justify it.

What youve said already annoys me and I have 9 years until I may (or may not) deal with this. The competition sounds hideous, kids from outside the area applying so unfair, the fact the more money you have the more you can tutor your kids. I’m former grammar and I have to say I think if grammars didn’t exist it may be far fairer…

1. Can you quote where I said the comps in grammar areas are 'poor' or that anyone is 'ignored"?
2. There is a lot of research to back up precisely what I've just said (some of it written by me 😁)

Children in grammar schools are self motivated. They generally don't need to be pushed to study. The children who are getting the lower grades are the children who passed the test but are unable to continue without constant tuition. My daughter observed it in her lower years and they have struggled.
My daughter has had no tuition and was able to obtain grade 9 across all her subjects in her GCSEs last year. That was through studying very hard and sacrificing her leisure time,but not all the time.
Grammar school environment is very different from comprehensive schools other than the academia . It's very difficult to describe but children utilise their spare time very differently and what matters to them other than the usual teenage crap is different.

@surreygirl1987 Where I live the whole county has a grammar system. It’s true most of those are outstanding schools and most of the non grammars are good, however it’s not true to say the non grammars (not comps for obvious reasons) are poor. They absolutely are not, A few aren’t the best but many parents I’ve known have been very happy with their secondary schools. Plus dc going to these schools go to uni and achieve very well. They aren’t ignored because they matter to the schools. Their results matter. Many non grammars get over 30% higher ability dc so expectations are high. Most parents (unless they are wholly unreasonable) realise dc who haven’t passed for the grammars can do just as well at a secondary and are relaxed about it.

If you have time maybe trial a tutor even though they say they don't want one.

I think you should encourage your son to go to a tutor and to up the sessions to perhaps 2-3hours a week as it’s the holidays and it’s quite late in the day now. 11+ tests are a load of nonsense if you ask me - both my sister and I failed them because we didn’t get tutored, then got tutors, took the test again the next year and got into the local grammar. We were intelligent kids and ended up getting all As/A*s at the grammar, going to good unis, etc., but the fact we hadn’t been primed for the test the first time round meant we were always going to fail it. Local comprehensive was awful - I just remember the shock of the bullying, disruptive classes where the teacher couldn’t teach us anything because one or two really naughty kids just didn’t want to behave. Exhausted teachers and low expectations of the kids was my experience (though I conceded this won’t be true in all comps). I still remember the surprise I felt when the 11 year-old boy I sat next to in assembly opened his blazer jacket to show me a packet of cigarettes and offered me one!

Although I don’t agree with the pressure kids such as myself and your sons are put under, that is the state of the secondary school system and rather than put him through all that potential upset of going to a bad comprehensive, perhaps you need to sit him down and explain that although he may not like tutoring, taking the test, etc., it’s important to do so he can go to a good school and be in a more supportive learning environment, and stay with his friends.

of course I have experience of grammar. There’s no way every student in a grammar school goes on to study law and medicine. I think you’ll find a lot go on for average degrees ie nursing teaching , business, geography, politics which are not top qualifications, these can be achieved also in a comprehensive school. Yes a grammar will have higher percentage going to third level but not all these students perform on a top level i.e. straight A*/A.

How do you know that kids from outside the area are receiving massive amounts of tutoring?

Exactly this. You are the parent. You get to decide. It’s only 5 weeks of his life. The incentive is that if he passes he’ll get to be with his mates. Just make it non-negotiable. Hire a tutor three times per week - get the best one you can find. The test examines how well they can take tests. They need to be VERY familiar with the test format. Has little to do with intelligence.

The majority of students going to grammar school are not average. This is particularly untrue of students in super selective grammars. They wouldn't get into the schools if they were anywhere near average. There are no more distractions in grammar than in your average private school. Do you have any direct experience of grammars?

Most of the work will be done outside school not in the classroom, therefore a clever child will do well if the curriculum is delivered. Secondary level - the student has to be interested in learning themselves. Most of these top students are getting extra tuition when it comes to the GCSE/a level.
I studied all science alevels with top marks in a comprehensive school and the work was done at home and with extra tuition and it was a lot of work.. There was distractions in the group and I’m sure this happens in grammar too. The majority of students going to grammar will be average. And there will also be a lot of distractions there as the kids grow up..bullying, social media, phones, drugs and smoking is not just in comprehensive. The parents need have an extremely important role in how their children turn out and what they achieve.

Exactly this. Areas where there are grammar schools typically have worse comprehensive schools. The grammars 'cream off' the top students (or the students with the pushier parents!). Grammar schools therefore serve to widen the gap more.

I've tutored 100s of kids for 11+ and ultra-competitive private school entrance exams, and I do think that often tutors are needed not because they explain concepts any better but because the parent/child relationship comes with much more baggage than the tutor/parent one. But I also think sometimes exam performance comes down to emotional state and psychology as much as ability, so de-escalating the emotions around the prep could really help.

One thing I've done with students who are not enjoying 11+ preparation is to move away from the books/practice papers, and focus on the skills in another context. For example - reading bits of non-fiction texts like newspapers or Bill Bryson books or the New Scientist together (obviously preselect these so the level of challenge is appropriate), asking the student to guess what a word means, or why the author has chosen a word or what the student thinks they are trying to say. It can be trickier for maths but you can improve fluency and confidence by challenging each other to multiple two digit numbers together mentally at the kitchen table, reading graphs/charts in The Economist or FT, guessing the probability it's going to rain based on the sky. If there's resistance to "11+" work, try GCSE questions for (it sounds crazy but if you filter by grade on maths genie, the grade 1 is KS2 stuff, and it can be a confidence boost when you tell them they're already doing GCSE work!)

Of course this alone might not be enough, but these type of activities could help you keep up the academic momentum without making sitting down and tutoring feel like a chore. It could act as a bit of a reset, or act as a middle ground between doing nothing and keeping going as you currently are.

"clever child who wants to do well will do well" simply isn't true if that child gets bullied for doing well or is in a class with constant disruption. Many bright kids do Ok but not their full potential. If a teacher is dealing with disruptions or concentrating on ensuring the bottom half of the class have understood the lesson then how can they stretch the top pupils in that class?

I’m of the opinion a clever child who wants to do well will do well
anywhere in the uk system with supportive parents. Most teachings will be reinforced from home throughout the academic years. I was once told one of the most important things for children was to have a family meal together. Children need to be selective of their friend choices…

sometimes, some of the most wayward children are in grammar schools.

I feel like your child isn’t too bothered in academics atm and would struggle to keep up in a grammar and May fall further behind when he is there and possibly in with the wrong crowd. If you are struggling to teach him you definitely need to get a tutor as you are possibly making things harder for him. Maybe if he gets a good tutor who has a fun teaching style this might be the key.

the transfer test is an elite test and should be scrapped. If parents want an elite education they should pay for private and let public school children be mixed levels.

I hate the 11+ system too. (We were fortunate that it suited our kids at that age, but no doubt about it, it is a blunt and brutal sorting tool at a very tender age).

A number of my closest peers did not pass the 11+ and have done as well, if not better, than those who passed way back when. Resilience, common sense and the ability to get on with all and sundry are very under rated in academia, but are cracking life skills and they have them in spades.

Ideally we should have a system that sorts according to learning style - be it academic or more practical. There should be the ability to switch between the two and a pride in both.

Since we are stuck with existing system and your DS doesnt enjoy tutoring, why not concentrate on just really useful learning that will stand him in good stead regardless - times tables/vocab etc test&correct mistakes by repetition whilst undertaking physical challenges eg run up & down the kitchen, or do skipping, throwing & catching, star jumps, trampoline etc shouting out the answers while trying to hit the target number of runs/jumps/bounces etc. If nothing else, it's a laugh, our kids seemed to remember it better and gets it over with quicker because they are keen to make a start.

All very best to you both.