Angry men problem is bigger than racism…

Any society with a huge surplus of young single men is a dangerous one.

What is preventing men from providing for their families and taking care of their children?

I heard a good summary on the radio yesterday. Its professional racists + disaffected angry men + bored youths.

It got me thinking about social media, including Mumsnet. Professional agitators and bots start a lot of posts.

Sorry - I am white British, as are most of my family, should have said that.

I think that must depend what kind of community you live in. My family and seemingly everyone in my hometown are always at bloody family inter generational parties and fetes and blessings and god knows what.

This is an interesting take on things.

English culture, especially around family and community, has been decimated in the last 50 years. There are groups that carry on trying to support and provide community activities and support - but it doesn't seem to be embedded in families and neighbourhoods naturally like it may have been 100 years ago.

There are very few opportunities for regular, intergenerational, community gatherings to celebrate food, life, togetherness.

Hah unfortunate autocorrect there. I doubt Steven YL would ever associate with Lebanon.

I’m not sure the massive sudden uptick in racial violence can be conclusively linked to social conditions and disadvantage.

i think there is a rump of people who are just pretty hardcore racist. A few dickheads catch the limelight, a bit of co-ordination by social media and pack mentality/ strength in numbers takes over - they’re like sheep and feel suddenly emboldened to go out and make a horrible fuss en masse.

I think people are going out and rioting not cos they’ve suddenly reached boiling point at being repressed/ downtrodden/ neglected, but your Nigel Farages and Steven Yaxley Lebanon’s and your local gobshite rabble rousers have seen an opportunity for causing mayhem and venting their racism, and have run with it. A change of government may also have something to do with it. Bit like testing the waters to see what they can get away with as racist little thugs under this administration.

I grew up in a very deprived area of Nottinghamshire, we were poor, we shared our home with another family as we couldn’t afford both rent, utilities, etc in their entirety.

The secondary school I attended largely served just our estate, with the odd person from a bit further away. So the majority of children came from fairly deprived homes.

I’m yet to throw a brick through someones window, set fire to a wheelie bin, racially abuse anyone, riot in the street, assault a police officer, assault a paramedic, have a swastica tattoo, fail to brush my teeth or make a poorly spelt sign.

Aggression is likely due to shit parenting, anyone could punch someone, spit on someone etc, but people who aren’t dragged up don’t go around doing those things. The guys we’ve seen out and about are likely the ones encouraging their children to hit back, not bothering to actually parent at home, putting zero value on education and training to get a decent job. Being a violent thug is taught behaviour.

We know from schooling etc the biggest thing regarding a childs life chances is how they are parented, thats the one thing thats really really hard to change.

Some positive change was happening in areas with things like surestart centres, I think ideally more support for women in deprived areas in leaving partners would likely have quite a big beneficial impact, and where they are in social housing episodes of violence etc leading to the perp being removed from the lease so women have a safe, secure home they can stay in. Then on top of that additional funding for childcare, parenting courses and support to access vocational courses. We know that the more educated a woman is the better longterm outcomes for her children.

In the UK investment in children really needs to change, the view of children being an expensive inconvenience really isn’t a healthy one.

It’s a gammon problem

It was ever thus, and it will be ever thus. There is always those at the bottom of society. Most are decent people, a few arent. It's akin to football supporters. It's like a culture, a belonging and going along with the crowd. I dont think the majority of those attending these riots really despise Muslims, they just want to throw bricks and break down fences, as its rebellious and feel part of some sort of tribe.

I was thinking about this and how about making it entirely voluntary say for two or three years. But afterwards the state will assist you with entry into university and pay for your entire tuition fees, much like the GI Bill in the US.

No one can complain because it's entirely voluntary.

@CaptainBolt

"Yes, there is a wider issue of angry, aggressive men. Sometimes it does feel like they do nothing to help themselves, though. What's the answer? Better male role models? Men's groups? More responsibility? More loving childhoods? More disciplined childhoods? "

Yes to all of the above points. I would also add:

Loss of large manufacturing and industrial jobs which were traditionally done by poorer while working class men and which gave them a sense of community.
That poor white working class boys are the lowest performing group in education with the lowest representation at universities.
That education is sometimes not recognised as a way out of poverty and sometimes not valued by poor white working class boys, girls or parents. "I managed just fine without an education so can my kids".
The reduction in stable two parent families. There is often absent or non involved fathers that sadly creates sons who will do the same in a vicious circle.
Reduction in religious attendance which whether you agree with it or not does increase educational attainment and reduces chances of imprisonment.
A loss of hope or ambition - "I don't know anyone in my community or family will a well paying job, the odds are stacked against me so why bother trying.
Drug and alcohol addiction.
Positive discrimination in both jobs and university entrance which if you are a poor white working class boy looks and feels like plain old discrimination.
Reduction in military numbers which traditionally took a large number of poor white males.
Childhood trauma of violence, alcohol abuse, mother's introducing and changing new male partners.
Stable and secure housing.

So yes some of it is down to the individuals and some of it is down to circumstances beyond their control.

Agree

As said in house of the dragon

Wise
Words

"Men are unhappy and unhappy people Need someone to hate."

There are women involved, too but:

Male aggression and violence is a massive issue and it is on the rise.
Male aggression and violence coupled with racism is another level. Baying mobs generally don't stalk streets looking for women.

They has always been and will always be angry young men. You can't fix it. They need an outpouring for their general anger and these fake protests are now the flavour of the month. I doubt many of the men are actually racist, they just want an excuse to join a mob and hurl abuse and rocks at the innocent police. It's just a day out for them.

This. It's invariably rooted in poverty.

Yes and no.

I think there is a racial/racist element to these riots. People looking for someone to blame for their dissatisfaction.

Also agree that there is a wider issue with angry young men (in all communities) with poor education, poverty, poor upbringing, exposure to criminality. I am a secondary school teacher and we have boys (and a few girls) who come to us age 11 already with violent behaviour and it is very difficult to see the path for them

For what it’s worth - suicide rates are significantly higher in men than women, and always have been. Your points stand, but young men in crisis harm themselves as well as or instead of people around them.

They are justified to be angry, the anger doesn’t justify their actions is the issue. It has been misdirected.

Successive governments & the ultra rich have been propping up the privileged, widening inequality, robbing working class of their share of profit and productivity gains, draining and dismantling public services…

Their anger is justified…and look here Farage and his ilk are there to re-direct the anger away from those who are at fault and towards convenient scapegoats instead. They’ve done this for so long while fixing nothing such that the anger has simply grown.

Single, young men are a huge problem in many countries around the world.

Throughout history they were usually taken off to war, and either died or the process "made men" of them and they returned with honour.
Or tribal cultures have rituals of "war-bands" for young men to burn off their testosterone (metaphor), and initiation rituals.

In the modern world, their is nothing in society for young men who can't earn enough to start a family, and no socially sanctioned outlet for their aggression. Even sports now try to dampen down the aggression in their fans.

Somebody will be along just now to tell you that young men are justified in their anger because men as a whole have been demonised by modern society, blamed for everything etc, and the dissolution of the nuclear family has meant they have lost male role models blah blah blah.
Totally ignoring the fact that:

• any decent young man could do 30 minutes of research and learn basic things about feminism and the patriarchy and understand that the message is not 'men are evil'
• the 'role models' that are lost by the breakdown of the nuclear family model are the men who abused their families, cheated on their wives, saw children as a woman's job, saw housework as women's work, had addiction problems that impacted their families... all those 'role models' who 50 years ago, mothers would have had to put up with (and thereby unfortunately setting a damaging example of relationships to their children who would then go on to repeat the mistakes they viewed in their parents and normalised as a child) a huge percentage of these men can now be kicked out as societal shame and female financial independence are not as big of barriers as they once were. But women are meant to feel ashamed that their son doesn't have a male role model in the house, when the option available was their ex partner, Dave who never changed a nappy for any of his kids, never attended a single family day out, bullied his male sons under the guise of banter...

Not Finsbury park mosque I hope, OP

I agree with that but also let's not diminish the racial aspect of it. This is what's most terrifying to many people.