Angry men problem is bigger than racism…

@theduchessofspork But, if you’d rather they do it, then all you have to do is wait around in an appropriate venue (including OLD) being friendly and available and they will ask you

Well that still requires a certain amount of effort/social skills just like it would for men. Women probably find it slightly easier naturally, but there are still many introverted women with self-confidence issues who would struggle to come across as friendly and available. No different than the problems incels face.

I won't argue OLD is harder for men but it's not their only option. They just have to put the time and effort into it.

Well you really don’t have to wait around to be asked, most men are simply delighted to be asked, and it hasn’t been particularly unusual for women to initiate for a very long time.

But, if you’d rather they do it, then all you have to do is wait around in an appropriate venue (including OLD) being friendly and available and they will ask you - your looks would have to be very under average for that not to happen. In this I think it’s very hard to argue men have it easier.

I don't agree with women being able to easily get sex. Only if we all started ignoring social norms. Men still overwhelmingly do the chasing-the reason incels struggle is because they are so entitled they aren't willing to do that. So they blame women for dating men who have bothered to put in an effort and actually ask them out. It's still quite unusual for a woman to ask a man out-so we have to wait around to be asked. If you have under average looks that may never happen. Men actually have it easier-it's just a numbers game to them, ask enough women and sooner or later one will say yes.

Tbh the people I know of who are right wing, would turn up to have a go at the police, those who are racist etc aren't listening to Trump.

@Ponoka7
Wrt hating Taylor Swift -

Because they are tuned in to right wing misogyny and lap up the pronouncements of the likes of Trump and Vance, who have overtly derided Swift, with comments about cat ladies the latest in the invective.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/donald-trump-more-popular-taylor-swift-maga-biden-1234956829/

Trump's 'culture war' reflects and inspires a global wave of extreme backlash against feminism.

Erm, no, women can't "easily" get sex if they want it. At least, I've certainly never found it easy. There are plenty if involuntarily celibate women, but they don't go attacking people over it. They tend to keep quiet and internalise it. Comments like yours increase the shame and stigma: it's far, far less socially acceptable to be a woman who can't find sex easily, so the shame and silence around it is immense.

Quite frankly I’m surprised anyone has the energy to go out rioting and fighting.
Seriously most people I know work hard and have so much to do they do not have the time or energy.
You must be sat on your backside constantly if you aren’t exhausted.

Why ffs?

I agree OP. Nothing makes for a contented society more than young men with full pockets from jobs that keep them fully occupied.

And I mean "men". Unemployed young women don't seem to have these issues.

[Had to Google Scott Galloway BTW]

Neurodiversity - addictions - trauma, either from childhood or current - diet (energy drinks, fast food) - poor mental health with no support - lack of physical exertion - a distrust of the Government and lack of opportunities

put all these together and what do we see?

Yes, most women don't want or expect a man to look after them, but they do want a partnership of equals where the work and the responsibility is shared. I think that's progress. Both men and women can find purpose in that.

Yes.

The running down of UK manufacturing, with more physical jobs, and promotion of a service economy haven’t helped some. We need that pent up male energy to grow food and get the harvest in.

Women can always easily get sex if they want but many choosing to stay single.

Incels are everywhere and the angry sexless men are a scourge.

Surely what's changed is that toxic masculinity is no longer considered acceptable.

Men’s testosterone presents as anger ..naturally their primitive urges were to hunt/kill for survival. In modern day young men often sit in front of Xboxes, sometimes playing games involving violence, which means that they’re storing all of their pent up emotions with nowhere for them to go

Physical sport and/or the National Service would help

Honestly, I don't think men have changed much. Society has.

Men have always had to be aggressive to protect their communities; this has been ongoing since the dawn of time. Up until 80 years ago there had been fairly regular conflicts and men were sent off to fight, so partially had an outlet there. Aggression against women - physically and sexually - has always been prevalent. Aggression against other groups of people was always commonplace, be it foreigners or those with different religious views. Work for the majority of men was hard and physical - again, neccessitating a degree of aggression.

What has changed is the type of man society needs now. In the last 50 years or so, physical work has become a lot more scarce. There are no large conflicts on domestic soil and men don't have to serve in the army abroad. Men are suddenly expected to be a lot softer, to work in ways that are, biologically speaking, far more suited to women due to their academic or precise nature and lack of movement. There is limited time for physical activity due to societal expectations, and often also limited money (say, for the gym and necessary equipment).

I'm honestly not sure what the solution is, but I do think that the way society has changed has a lot to do with the increase in internalised anger we see from men here, and it bubbles over at times.

Totally agree but I don’t think it’s just due to the last government but several previous ones too as the problems are multi generational and run through families in some cases

I think lack of community doesn't help. There's no place to bring people together anymore. Pubs have gone, community services like halls and libraries are shut or significantly reduced, even parks are shut early because we can't fund them to be cleaned and secure and most at least in our area still haven't recovered from COVID (benches still removed or chained off).

So that means community is found online and they slip down an algorithm.

This is the silliest post I've ever seen on Mumsnet.

Do you think women choose to be single, full time working mums? Do you imagine we wouldn't love someone to share life with, to carry half the financial and emotional load?

But women want to be treated as equals, to share. Successful marriages are based on a fair share of workload. Marriages and partnerships fail when that does not happen. I took our ds and left when my ex treated me like dirt after ds was born. My life is easier as a full time working single mum, than it was living with my partner, which shows that he was just a hinderance. His contribution to the mortgage didn't make up for his abuse and contempt.

All the women are still out there. Demographics haven't changed but we need to raise our sons to expect to pull their weight with cleaning bathrooms and cooking meals. Their expectations from childhood must be that they pull their weight, and that they take pride in that.

I totally agree! All of it is angry alone men - disengaged lonely teenagers, disengaged lonely migrants, apart from maybe disengaged angry British men who seem not to be alone but certainly lacking purpose in life.
All this community blaming just fills a void and stops them feeling responsible for themselves - it's the immigrants, it's the white people, it's the women and girls living freely etc.
I have no sympathy for any of it - they should all grow up, take responsibility for their own futures and appreciate we all have to share this ailing planet with people who may or may not share our belief system.
Do something to help people instead of throwing toys and fighting like spoilt toddlers.
Why is this such an accepted male trait? Why are women "naturally more caring"?
Absolutely sick of it - men can also be "naturally" protective of others but Farage, Trump, Isis, Hamas, Israel, Putin, etc etc just seem to want to fight others and do nothing at all productive to help the world and that seems to start a chain reaction of dickhead blokes retaliating.
Why can't positive, constructive helpfulness from men be the new social contagion?
Not a chance is there!

I think you are right OP.

In the past, young men were valued for their strength and energy. It didn't matter if they were not academic. They were paid well and could afford a home, a car & attract a girlfriend easily. But things that have changed are:

• computerisation has rendered physical strength less valuable
• more women are competing in the work place
• boys have to get their head around the fact their girlfriend may earn more than them
• more jobs requiring qualifications / a degree

It isn't the same for girls because the traditional things that girls aspired to are still valued - to be beautiful, to be a good mother etc. So girls can be academic, a professional success or they can go the traditional route. Or both

So many young men struggle to see their place in the world. They worry and they internalise it because it isn't 'cool' to express those worries. It's why suicide rates among young men are so high. It's why the rates of individuals 'gone missing' are much higher for men between the ages of 15-25.

Feeling hopeless and disenfranchised inevitably results in anger and frustration. It's where the incel movement has come from.

I've already had to talk my 15yo ds down from a worry that 'girls will only go out with someone who has £80k a year and a car'. Thankfully he confides in me, he tells me his worries. I've been able to prove that is rubbish, that it's just sexist nonsense peddled on the web.

Too many boys have been raised to expect to follow their fathers, the world has changed and now they are struggling.

I'm not saying anger and frustration is right, I'm not saying that more girls in the workplace is a bad thing (obviously, I'm one of them) but I do think we need to support our young men more, and help them to find their feet.

What you've listed is spot on.
The it costs millions in hotel bills for refugees bit really pisses me off because it conjures up images of being on holiday.
This couldn't be further from the truth substandard accommodation, cheapest food possible, family all in one room for months on end.
I'm always curious as to whose mates got those contracts.
The vilification of the disabled is abhorrent.
We recently had to claim UC been living off savings etc .my dw can only work 16 hrs due to oesteoporosis, osteoarthritis.work coach said there maybe a cure for it....words literally failed me.

Plenty of young men have been let down by society. I have commented on a few threads now about how white working class boys underperform at school and how many working class, male jobs have disappeared. They are not just angry but they are also vunerable. This is from the ONS website "Since around 1990, men have been at least three times as vulnerable to death from suicide as women. Research by Samaritans suggests that this greater risk is due to a complex set of reasons, including increased family breakdown leaving more men living alone; the decline of many traditionally male-dominated industries; and social expectations about masculinity:
"They have seen their jobs, relationships and identity blown apart. There is a large gap between the reality of life for such men and the masculine ideal.""

There does have to be an element of personal responsibility, of course there does. But that goes for any other group too. I've seen posters ripped apart on MN for suggesting that disabled, those in poverty, single mothers...etc should help themselves. If you would talk about another group in society with more compassion then maybe there's an element of racism and misandry to your thinking.

I agree. I am in Australia and the angry men is a worldwide thing in general, not just UK. My colleague who is married, earns a good wage, has a nice supportive family etc etc is a very angry Trump supporter who thinks that the reason women get murdered in DV situations is because of feminism.

He watches a LOT of You Tube videos late at night when he should be in bed and that’s how I think he has become radicalised. He wasn’t like this a few years ago and he was much happier back then.

You do realise that you are in the minority with such extreme views. The counter protests last night demonstrates this quite clearly. Immigration is an issue undoubtedly and we need to get a handle on it, but the real issue is infrastructure. Investment in infrastructure hasn't kept pace with the population increase.

Muslims have their own banks because they do not charge interest as it is against their beliefs. There is nothing wrong with this. They do not believe you should profit from money. And your comment about them, whoever they are, not paying taxes is ludicrous. There is an issue with unemployment amongst poor, young Muslim men, but this also exists in the white community too.

I think you will find that you hate them. There are good and evil individuals in every community in this country. There are hateful people from ethnic minorities, but just as many hateful white people as your post exemplifies.

If life in your community is so bad look up to see why instead of punching down. It's millionaires and billionaires, successive conservative governments, multinational corporations who have exploited and then abandoned communities who are to blame, not asylum seekers who, metaphorically speaking, do not have a pot to piss in.