Are people on Mumsnet secretly racist or what?

Yes of course it does.

Fwiw just had a conversation with someone who has had their plans for tomorrow inconvenienced.

"I've mostly ignored it because it's never affected me in the past. Just pricks being pricks. But as soon as it does it angers me".

That's why I say it's not going to end well for thugs.

Right now it's terrifying for many. But longer term it will led to a proper crackdown and these thugs aren't going to be well received for shitting on their own doorsteps.

The public mood won't tolerate a soft response to the violence. It's angering people who normally see it as 'someone else's problem' because suddenly it actually is their problem too. It should not be like that but thats human nature.

I have faith that it isn't something that it's going to become a bigger issue for those reasons.

We are in the middle of things and people are trying to make sense of it all. It doesn't come from nowhere, but equally I don't think it's reflective of a problem that's as deep as others fear it to be either.

@RedToothBrush such a shame about these marginalised communities. Unfortunately there's very limited chances of them realising that foreigners are not the problem, the government is.

I am baffled as to how acting out these frustrations on the minorities and making them the scapegoats can elevate their social standing and identify. Doesn't that actually make them the coward?

You give power in areas of their life they havent got it. That's about opportunities and not letting the far right have the space to exploit this lack of life opportunity and levels of poverty.

You misinterpret what I'm saying somewhat.

Power and control is about feeling you have a stake and worth to society as an individual. It's not about repellent views. People turn to repellent views because they don't feel life is worth much otherwise.

Tell me how you deal with comments on MN in a better way then? How do you deal with opinions and thoughts? You just shift the conversation elsewhere. A UK based website is much better placed to deal with those conversations than a US based site (not least because MN is under UK law jurisdictions so if there are comments which are inciting violence MN are under reasonable arguments to disclose any information they may have about that individual).

Do you think I'm condoning violence? Do you think I'm even sympathetising with it? I'm not.

Are you saying that violence is the same as comments on MN? Do you think the violence came from conversations on MN?

Its not about my skin colour. You can try and make out it is. I'm pragmatic about how people behave and what ultimately changes hearts and minds. What we might want isn't necessarily what will actually work. I don't think there's a quick fix that's the issue.

My problem with what you are saying is I think you are conflating TWO separate but distinct issues here. There's yes, there's two separate groups.

Yougov has done a poll today and even support for the riots amongst Reform voters is a significant minority.

Thus we HAVE to treat them as two. One which is an actual threat and one which isn't.

There IS incitement to hatred going on online and social media and that a problem. But I also think that's distinct from people making ignorant points but in good faith because they are scared.

There's lots of scared people, to different degrees and with different levels of legitimacy. Some of it justified and some of it not. Some of this fear is born of prejudice, so you have to offer reassurance. That comes from dealing with shit questions and comments. Not just shouting racist.

If you say they are the same, you aren't marginalising the thugs and the racists. You want to reduce the size of that group and then work on the other group in a totally different way.

It's about the entrenched and the misguided. If you push the misguided the wrong way they entrench. The misguided are still open to conversations.

I wish it were different. Really I do.

@RedToothBrush I am unsure what you are disagreeing about?

People can still be racist if they are being given power and control?

Stifling healthy debates can give rise to more hate crime?

Justification for racist behaviours can embolden certain population (who lack education and social inclusion) into carrying out more hate crime?

By the way the question still leaves unanswered. Appreciate you might not be able to but since you have proven to have great insight into how these rioters feel and think (and I do not mean this in a sarcastic way), I am still keen to understand why these people are targeting the wrong social class. Could the skin colour be the prime factor?

I disagree.

I think they are shocking people and people are less tolerant of people claiming to be acting in the interests of their country whilst they are smashing up their community.

I don't think it will pan out the way you think either.

It will come to an end and history will record this as unacceptable not part of forcing wider tolerance of the right.

The timing is precisely down to a left wing government.

There is a desire to pin this on the left wing. It's a sign of weakness not strength.

The best way the government can respond isn't by going for identity politics, it's by drilling down into economics.

The right wants to play identity politics because it can't argue in the same way on other issues.

@RedToothBrush I am truly sceptical that certain people can be less racist if they were given power and control - I would think that's quite the opposite.

I have to go back to my question as to why these people are not targeting the white populations if they are worrying and resenting about the lack of opportunity and access to resources.

Shutting down debates and name calling is not helpful but as you clarified in your informative posts, with the lack of education & exposure to people who look different than them, these group of people are more vulnerable to being solictated for hate crime. The are more susceptible to mob mentality and instead of using their faculties to identify the root cause of their social positions, your posts will be utilised as a justification for them to carry out more unkind and racist behaviours.

‘I appreciate that if you are 'on the recieving end' this might be particularly hard to deal with, but I think understanding that you have to communicate to allievate those fears and put them to bed. You can't do that, if you just censor and prevent those conversations.’

How to tell me you’re white English without telling me you’re white English.

I’m sure the Asian guy fighting for his life in Belfast after being dragged out of his car and having his head stamped on yesterday, should have simply had a conversation with his attackers first to alleviate their fears of HIM.

I’m certain if the targets were women, nobody would be telling them to engage the marauding men in dialogue to alleviate their fears of women.

This isn’t some shitty American 80s movie where the racist abuses the minority for the majority of the movie whilst the minority smiles indulgently and by the closing credits, the racist is cured, no harm done.

This is people’s actual lives. Minorities are not props for the majority to having teaching moments. They do not want to and should never have to debate their existence. Ever.

I don't particularly disagree with that tbh.

I do think there are people who if given more power and worth in their own right, wouldn't feel the need to be racist though.

I don't think people are inherently racist either. They become racist for a variety of very complex reasons. I do think you can reduce that more by addressing completely unrelated issues to race.

So I do think its important on MN we have conversations about difficult social issues, that perhaps are controversial. I think there are enough people here to challenge on point. I think that shutting down those conversations by just saying racist, don't necessarily help. WHY is it racist? Explain WHY its problematic. Does the argument hold water? Let people talk because they get the point of their chest and do feel their concern is listened to. I know this is uncomfortable, but the alternative is that same conversation is had elsewhere, amongst people who WON'T challenge where appropriate and provide an alternative point of view. These are festering underlying resentments and fears that won't just dissolve because you ignore them or say they can't be talked about. There's a tendency to think if you aren't allowed to, it must be because someone has a certain agenda and is using power against you. Rightly or wrongly.

Echo chambers are the biggest causes of polarisation. They are a breakdown in communication. We aren't listening to differences - and equally recognising and reduces problems and fears.

Understanding WHY people are saying racist things, is important. I don't necessarily think makes people racist as such. I think its about a lack of understanding different cultural values and priorities. To be racist the core intent has to be a hatred rather than a lack of knowledge and rather clumsy articulation. I appreciate that if you are 'on the recieving end' this might be particularly hard to deal with, but I think understanding that you have to communicate to allievate those fears and put them to bed. You can't do that, if you just censor and prevent those conversations. And yeah those conversations will repeat over and over again. But you don't get meaningful change and understanding without doing that unfortunately. Yep its fucking shitty. And yes I'm glad I'm not in that position personally. But I don't think there's a quick fix or an alternative way around the issue. That need for reassurance cuts in multiple directions - its not one way traffic. As I stress; intent is key here. There is a difference.

Is MN inherently secretly racist? No I don't think so. Are there racists on MN? Yes. But not as many as others try and make out.

I genuinely think MN is one of the few places I credit to have these needed conversations which might just ultimately cut through some of the crap you might see elsewhere on social media. It is part of the process of solution not the cause of creating racism. Why? Precisely because its not an echochamber.

@RedToothBrush great post. You have made a lot of justifications as to why, predominantly the working class (hate the term) white anglo-saxons are feeling at the moment. However, if fundamentally it is all about power and control, they have essentially been targeting the wrong group of people. You do not see them terrorising the white middle/upper class people.

In my eyes choices made based on skin colour made you a racist, regardless of social background you are coming from.

I dunno. There's endless threads about racism at the moment. There's no context to that.

There's no discussion about what racism looks like in different countries and who it's directed at.

I think that looking at that helps to unpick what's going on and why, and what prejudices we have as a society.

Culturally the way racism manifests and the way it manifests says a lot about a society that isn't about race at all. It's about power and control and who has it.

@RedToothBrush I do agree with that-

Education isn't for 'people like me'.

'What's the point in education? What value does it add to my life? I'm never going to go to university or be able to better myself by proving it because I'm from Shitsville and I've got no money'

'I was shit at school. I was told I was shit at school. I struggled with reading. I was told I was stupid'.

If your experience of education is to be told it's not for someone like you, you'll never do anything with it, repeatedly being written off, or even if you are good at it, it's pointless because you won't be accepted why would you do this?

Education as entertainment is competing with video games and social media. Reading a book isn't something you can do. Libraries are further away and less accessible.

There's no value placed on education by your peers. You aren't going to sit down the pub and talk about these things which might have been the case in the past.

Drugs. Drugs weren't a thing in mining towns before the mines closed. They are now. Drink was, but drink and going to the pub was associated with community too.

There's not things like the mining band so no reason to learn a brass instrument. Now that's just a middle class thing, when previously it had very working class traditions.

Anyone who had a natural attraction to those things 'got out' or encouraged their kids to 'get out'. Those who stayed perhaps were never going to be interested in those things.

You could use the two lines from the Manic Street Preachers that sums it up: 'Libraries gave us power. The work came and made us free."

Well the work left and the libraries closed. No jobs. No hope. No way to free yourself from poverty.

And yes I agree, understand the theory on this and doing things to practically change are very different things.

We need to start with recognising problems though. Challenging the ideas of writing off and dismissing people for being incapable and not worthy of anything are key points.

I don't believe that most people are bad or useless. Most people want to feed their family, put a roof over their heads and have dignity and respect through work.

Stuff like treating your cleaner with respect or being nice to waiting on staff is part of that.

There's the idea of treating others on their way up because you might one day find yourself on the way down, is a good one.

Did we commodify labour and dehumanise people at the same time?

Also rather controversially I think the decline in the church is at play. Values came from the church. The church was central in mining towns. Nonconformity was huge and taught dignity and pride through working. Equally it taught the middle class to be respectful in its own way. It's gone from most people's lives. Morality is what you get taught on social media as 'the right values' and those people who don't share them are almost 'sinners' or heretics. But I think they lack universality for many of the reasons that come into play above - lack of connection.

These right wing thugs talk about 'christian values' but you can bet your life they don't go to church. It's just a bunch of shit they've read off the internet they believe.

This lack of structure from that loss is in contrast to the strength that Islam has brought to emerging communities too. I think there's probably elements of jealousy from that.

People are complicated. They don't generally like change.

I agree that there may be some in government that think like this, however evidently our prime minister doesn't agree.

I think a lot of people are racist but gave actually no idea they are. They'd be very offended if you said they were. I've seem dozens of comments on MN that to me expose a very racist way of looking At situations.

@lovelysunshine22 I think plenty in gvt would actually be able to write similar posts - ( not diminishing @RedToothBrush great post) the problem is dealing with it in a practical way within the limitations we have both fiscally and physically and not creating even worse tensions by coming down too hard or too soft on the different factions- and the wrath of our media which all have a political slant . it's a very fine line - and understanding why things happen doesn't always make it that easy to actually solve-

@RedToothBrush great post- one thing I always noticed was that when I was in my 20s ( back in Mansfield) I was married to a miner and so had lots of friends from mining families- a lot of the older miners 40 plus were actually proud of often having really good knowledge of history and literature too - ( way better than mine and I was a grammar school girl) - however when we got down to those younger than 30 in manual occupations that pride in knowledge was vastly diminishing ( this was the 80s) - I can't put my finger on why this was- it was the time of Thatcher and 'loadsamoney' - but it was noticeable and sadly I think it continued- knowledge for knowledge sake outside of the middle classes just seemed to no longer 'be a thing' - maybe we could make history and literature for young people more enjoyable by linking it to events of the world as it is now?

@RedToothBrush your post is probably the most sensible thing ive seen written on here! I wish you were in government.

A collection of interconnecting thoughts:

There is a problem between people who believe in Liberal Identities based on a hierachy of identity and actual liberalism, human rights laws and the balancing of rights which isn't fixed and can change based on the situation.

I don't take lectures from people who don't understand the underlying principles of rights and the history of the development of rights. There are lots of them on MN...

Rights are about balancing needs and primarily about preventing harms: firstly physical, then in terms of dignity and then in terms of preventing exploitation and other discrimination. Its not about saying this identity is at the top and this one is more oppressed because of identity. In certain situations the balances of power are different to others and our law within the UK reflects this (with some variations between the four nations but largely very similar).

Balancing the needs of all - key point.

This fluidity needs to be recognised as does the purpose and intent of the law. You don't have a set of rigid rules with English Law for good reason. It creates injustice.

On the subject of injustice.

What we are seeing playing out is a sense of injustice in society and its manifesting in appalling ways. People who are happy don't riot. People who are happy are less likely to be raging racists. People who feel they have a place, a role, a stake in or purpose in their society and community, don't smash shit up. People who smash up their own community, do so because they don't feel part of it even if they are. They don't feel responsibility to their local community.

This goes back to a somewhat circular argument about Identity Politics and where we all fit into them. Identity Politics only works if it reflect injustice well and doesn't ignore crucial things. If you focus on identity politics to the exclusion of social problems, the social problems get neglected and identity politics then becomes the vehicle for exploitation by the far right as part of backlash.

Which takes me to education.

Someone talked upthread about race theory and how its being taught in UK schools - and the notions of liberalism that come from it. The main trouble is that this isn't particular reflective of the average Brit and their history. Its reflective of American History. For history to resonnant it needs to connect, and connect with everyone in someway. When it doesn't it isn't reflecting history and your life experience and who you mix with it doesn't work well. Teaching about slavery and the genocide of native americans is crucial in the US because it reflects that and the development of their nation, not so much here...

We'd be much better to talk about the development of rights from ways that connect to various experiences that relate better to those who live here in the UK and the way OUR laws have developed.

Part of this would include a certain amount of pride for working class communities and northern towns in grass roots protests and rights movements. It would be a much healthy lesson in trying to educate in how to effect change in a healthy and meaningful way. Rather than rioting. How did largely illiterate working class men, really make change and were listened to?

Instead we get 'Liverpool oppressed the world and all white men are oppressors' type narrative which I think is unhelpful. The average working class white bloke from a northern mill town will have a very different personal social history in terms of 'privilege' and benefit to that narrative. The 'privilege' if your ancestors worked in the cotton industry in a mill might extend as far as not starving to death. Thats not really connecting with the idea of being an oppressor is it?

Just how does 'working class bloke from Burnley or St Helens', fit into the narrative of the privileged white bloke in practice? We have to consider this in a better way that actually reflects reality. Trying to educate kids from these areas that they have 'white privilege' is dumb. We are trying to attach guilt and shame to certain identity characteristics. Its not a compelling selling point. People want to feel pride and a sense of connection and value. Its about participation and having value within society. What is your role and your stake in your community?

Indeed Bloke From Burnley might family may well have been involved in events like Peterloo or in movements like the Chartists fighting against the oppression and abuses of power his ancestors faced. Maybe they were were involved in the establishment of the 'Manchester Guardian'. We seem to forget that the Manchester Radicals were key players who supported the Abolition of Slavery - these included men who were effectived by what they witnessed at Peterloo. These white working class men were part of the fight for workers rights and wider suffrage. We seem to get stuck just talking about women's suffrage rather than this wider understanding of the history.

Our history is complex. We HAVE been oppressors and we HAVE benefitted as a nation from slavery and colonialism. We SHOULD talk about this, but also we conscious of the degree to which everyone felt that. And we've also been a key part in the development of worker rights and human rights that have also spread across the world and we want others to have. And how they extend to everyone. I think there's this sense that 'rights are for minorities and not for me' from white working class men. This isn't true. I note that Brexit and Reform is lead by people who seek to remove workers rights. Rights that arguably protect the working class most. Its something we should be conscious of. Why are rights important even to Bloke From Burnley?

We need to work to restore this sense of belonging and being of worth rather than looking down on people shouting 'chav'. Otherwise they will look for others who 'give them respect' (like Nazi scumbags who want to use them).

Equally understanding how our neighbours ancestors was affected by the British Army in India has greater ressonance rather than someone we have no connection to in the US was hurt by slavery by the same people who were exploiting our own ancestors (though to a lesser extent) primarily for their own personal profit. But rather than purely staying 'we were bad' (which we were), there are ways we can frame this into doing better rather to not harm people like our neighbours without the language of historic shame. The average guy who joined the army in the last century was regarded as the lowest of the low. This was desired because he was a ruffian and would be willing to carry out the crimes of the higher ups. The men were taught to follow orders of their superiors. Failure to do this, resulted in harsh punishment. And why we don't do this anymore and how our understanding of how the army should behave and what is role is has changed - in part because of the concept of 'just following orders' not being acceptable and how we have individual responsibilities to everyone and to question certain unacceptable orders. Give power back and actually reflect who was responsible at the time and who would be responsible now. And where men in similar situations have made different decisions which have had much more positive impact. People who are actually relatible. Thats better than the ridicilous jingoistic Two World Wars nonsense too.

Racism is the product of a failure of other policies. If you feel 'at the very bottom', its easy to punch down on those who are obviously different. How do you stop people feeling this sense of being at the bottom, without hope and with nothing to lose? It is the product of poor understanding of cultural differences - not just between those from other countries but internally within 'our own'. Its a failure to recognise the needs of ALL. Because we've failed to balance interests properly.

I dunno. I just think we've got these huge fractures in society and the 'othering' is because we aren't approaching these subjects in a way that everyone can participate and feel they have a positive role to play. Its couched in the language of blame and its deeply unhelpful. Its alienating particularly to certain groups, who we need to think about in different ways.

But perhaps theres a reason we don't look at the history and development of rights in this way too...

I think a lot of people aren't secretly racist but actually believe they aren't racist, when they are. My mother would say things like "I'm not racist because I'm friends with x, but there's too many here now...". That's racism love.

@RedToothBrush will you marry me? What a terrific post that was.

Affliation is an interesting word you used.

You have speculated to the notion of 1st generation immigrants might not feel inclined to be identified as a British. Is this from your personal/friend or family experience?

How about those 1st generation immigrants who are happy and proud to be British and just want to get on with their life, without having to worry about their safety? Do you feel anger for what happened to them?

We need that bollocks button!

That always happens on MN, toe the line, however extreme that line is, or you're out!I