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Original poster

The Home Secretary is not telling the truth about rioters 'paying the price' ...

243 replies

jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 11:17

as it will be the choice of a jury whether or not the accused is found guilty. She is being a very dishonest politician pretending it is her choice.

There could be a significant situation as in the statue of Edward Colston case, that if sufficient people in a jury agree with the underlying motivations the jury may use jury equity to find the accused not guilty.

Given the purported motivation of failed immigration policy is a political issue for a significant proportion of the population, this is an unlikely be possible outcome.

YABU = The Home Secretary is right, they will pay the price.
YANBU = The Home Secretary should be honest as that choice is for a jury.

OP posts:
tuvamoodyson · 04/08/2024 15:23

custardlover · 04/08/2024 12:07

And most of these will not have juries. But they will get criminal records and fines / custodial sentences and that may lead to them losing their jobs. Fucking idiots.

I’d be very surprised if most of them could spell ‘job’ never mind actually have one…

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:20

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 15:18

I love how much Fred Sirieix's French accent has become more pronounced in his reporting of the Olympics in France.

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It can sound so false but it does just genuinely happen, to some of us at least.

ThisOldThang · 04/08/2024 15:19

Saschka · 04/08/2024 13:59

Suella Braverman is the child of asylum seekers, it doesn’t seem to have had any impact on her views. Christmas dinner must be interesting round at their house.

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Do you have any evidence that he parents were asylum seekers?

Wikipedia states that her parents emigrated from Mauritius and Kenya.

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 15:18

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:17

Accents are funny things. My kids laugh when I visit my home city and suddenly have the broad accent of my childhood, not to mention that apparently if I lost my temper with them I suddenly have the Irish accent of my parents. None of it false, none of it put on.

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I love how much Fred Sirieix's French accent has become more pronounced in his reporting of the Olympics in France.

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 15:17

jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 15:15

They should have already identified over many years the undercurrent of disenfranchisement that always builds and comes out as violent disorder and have put in place measures within their first days of power to resolve the causes of it - there is no grace period, once in power, all successes and failures are down to the government of the day.

Assuming the trigger/tipping point was the Southport tragedy, preventing pre-medicated murder would be a start. Holding the prior government to account by insisting on stamping down on all protests that cause public inconvenience or have the potential to become violent such as those marches in London and just stop oil would have been another, and then ensuring a policy change once in power.

It's all too reactive - the damage has been done; protecting means preventing the arson not punishing after it.

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I may have missed it, can you provide a link to where Just Stop Oil have burnt down buildings or vehicles and thrown bricks at the police?

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:17

Rummly · 04/08/2024 15:02

I have my doubts about that.

There used to be a wonderful YouTube recording of Yvette Cooper speaking on a local radio station giving it the cosy northerner, contrasted with her stentorian RP tones in the House of Commons. I suspect she’s as slippery and changeable as all the rest. The recording’s been taken down. I imagine at her request.

My favourite description of her though is of a political Mavis Wilton. She’s so undecided about everything.

Still, any Home Secretary should be speaking out against rioters. So, good for her.

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Accents are funny things. My kids laugh when I visit my home city and suddenly have the broad accent of my childhood, not to mention that apparently if I lost my temper with them I suddenly have the Irish accent of my parents. None of it false, none of it put on.

Original poster
jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 15:15

Fluufer · 04/08/2024 14:53

How do you suppose they should "solve the problem"? Which problem do you mean? The needless rioting? Or whatever undefined "cause" they are rioting over?
And why do you think locking up arsonists isn't protecting the public?

Show quote history

They should have already identified over many years the undercurrent of disenfranchisement that always builds and comes out as violent disorder and have put in place measures within their first days of power to resolve the causes of it - there is no grace period, once in power, all successes and failures are down to the government of the day.

Assuming the trigger/tipping point was the Southport tragedy, preventing pre-medicated murder would be a start. Holding the prior government to account by insisting on stamping down on all protests that cause public inconvenience or have the potential to become violent such as those marches in London and just stop oil would have been another, and then ensuring a policy change once in power.

It's all too reactive - the damage has been done; protecting means preventing the arson not punishing after it.

OP posts:
LittleBowSheep · 04/08/2024 15:14

jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 14:42

I want to know how many people fall for this nonsense.

The government of the days job is to protect the public from this occurring, i.e. ensuring society is content and that criminal behaviour is prevented.

In this case, rather than doing her job and ensuring it never gets to this stage, she is talking about something that she has no say in - its deflecting from her failure to protect the public.

Despite what was said about integrity, this government is just being dishonest like the previous one.

We don't need to get wrapped up into semantics, there are clearly a lot of angry people around and they have decided this is the right time to express that anger by violent protest - I feel the government should be being completely honest, solving the problem and not spouting meaningless rhetoric.

What exactly is she saying then if she's being 100% honest with her words? How is she so clear that every single person involved will pay the price?

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Yes, indeed, you are talking nonsense.

It is you who is getting wrapped up in semantics by try to pick apart what YC said.

And you are tying yourself up in knots in the process.

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:13

Bluebellsinthewind · 04/08/2024 11:55

@Ponoka7 yeah, me and dh were just discussing those points. The logistics and money would be a nightmare.

There definitely needs to be a hard line on this. How long will these riots last? What will make it stop? How far could these muppets escalate things?

I also think the PM should do an address to the nation. Rather than snippets in the news.

Generally rain is the answer. I worked in police admin, in the 80s one of my jobs was to prepare the lists of officers to go to riots (we had them back then) on a dry sunny day my lists were longer and preparation of transport, food for the troops etc was also needed. Rain preferably accompanied by a cold spell usually calmed things down.

The other "cure" is to withdraw publicity. I don't know if it was true but we were told the media had agreed to withdraw coverage of the riots and it certainly did seem to disappear from the headlines and this also served to reduce the interest of rioters. Not so easy with the internet.

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 15:13

SauviGone · 04/08/2024 14:51

And the ones that are convicted, if sent to prison at all, will serve less than 40% of their sentence.

There will be barely any convictions, I doubt much will come of this at all tbh.

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My understanding is that serving 40% of the tariff is not an option for those convicted of violent offences, a change introduced in the last month, by the Labour government.

Clavinova · 04/08/2024 15:12

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 13:43

There is an Olympian who has lived in Bolton for 15 years.
Had to represent the refugee team, because the UK will not give her citizenship.

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The i newspaper reported that she made ‘seven or eight’ failed attempts at asylum before she was granted papers to stay in Britain.

Surely, that's an example of multiple appeals rather than 'slow processing'.

ExtraOnions · 04/08/2024 15:12

They will get caught, over the next few days they will be identified on video, and arrested.
They will be treated in a very similar way to the London rioters - the courts have already been told to prepare in the same way. They will end up in Prison. In the London Riots people got 6 months for stealing crisps.

That those involved think that they aren’t going to get prosecuted, is astounding. Maybe it adds to the idea that they are as thick as mince

NeverDropYourMooncup · 04/08/2024 15:11

ThisOldThang · 04/08/2024 15:08

"If it were 15% on a jury, that's still 11-1"

15% of 12 is 1.8, so in 4 out of 5 juries it would be 10-2.

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Can't have 0.8 of a person, so you have to deal in whole numbers.

ThisOldThang · 04/08/2024 15:08

NeverDropYourMooncup · 04/08/2024 12:48

If it were 15% on a Jury, that's still 11-1.

And it doesn't matter what the motivation is if there's a video of them swarming to kick the shit out of a copper or putting through a Shoezone window.

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"If it were 15% on a jury, that's still 11-1"

15% of 12 is 1.8, so in 4 out of 5 juries it would be 10-2.

absquatulize · 04/08/2024 15:03

Rummly · 04/08/2024 14:26

OK.

So the PP’s comment should have been “any immigrant who wishes to claim asylum is in fact a cost, up to the point when their claim is turned down, at which point they become an illegal immigrant and face deportation, and thereby cease to be eligible for any support”.

Not that the PP I’m thinking of said it, another poster did, but one can apparently add “there are also illegal immigrants who bypass the asylum process and melt into the country; but those numbers aren’t known”.

I assume the second group is much bigger than the first. Which, if true, makes the boat issue even more irrelevant.

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A previous poster incorrectly stated about illegal migrants "There is a cost to house, feed, supervise, process applications and everything else, surely?"

Which is untrue since illegal migrants as another poster noted "do not have recourse to public funds".

I am not sure which of the two you think should be changed. One is ignorant nonsense, the other is factual accurate.

Rummly · 04/08/2024 15:02

AdiLane · 04/08/2024 14:49

Given the purported motivation of failed immigration policy is a political issue for a significant proportion of the population, this is an unlikely be possible outcome.

Correcting your bold claim of ‘significant proportion’ - not true at all.

Having professional links with Yvette Cooper, she is a very honest, plain speaking and work with integrity.

She will do her absolute best to hold these thugs to account. I've no doubt she will succeed

I have my doubts about that.

There used to be a wonderful YouTube recording of Yvette Cooper speaking on a local radio station giving it the cosy northerner, contrasted with her stentorian RP tones in the House of Commons. I suspect she’s as slippery and changeable as all the rest. The recording’s been taken down. I imagine at her request.

My favourite description of her though is of a political Mavis Wilton. She’s so undecided about everything.

Still, any Home Secretary should be speaking out against rioters. So, good for her.

Original poster
jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 15:02

AdiLane · 04/08/2024 14:49

Given the purported motivation of failed immigration policy is a political issue for a significant proportion of the population, this is an unlikely be possible outcome.

Correcting your bold claim of ‘significant proportion’ - not true at all.

Having professional links with Yvette Cooper, she is a very honest, plain speaking and work with integrity.

She will do her absolute best to hold these thugs to account. I've no doubt she will succeed

So a significant proportion of people would be 5-10% for me, i.e. 1 in 20 people - after all you only usually need around 35% to form a government. Given the number of people who have raised issues and concerns about all types of migration at the election, what are you saying isn't true?

So exactly what is she going to do as Home Secretary to do that, and even if she does that's woefully short for ensuring those involved pay the price, which is what she said.

OP posts:
BustingBaoBun · 04/08/2024 14:56

GreenTeaLikesMe · 04/08/2024 14:52

Unfortunately there is no space in prisons right now. And I mean, like, no space.

Ministers have said there is capacity in the prison system to deal with the rioters.

Fluufer · 04/08/2024 14:53

jxpop665 · 04/08/2024 14:42

I want to know how many people fall for this nonsense.

The government of the days job is to protect the public from this occurring, i.e. ensuring society is content and that criminal behaviour is prevented.

In this case, rather than doing her job and ensuring it never gets to this stage, she is talking about something that she has no say in - its deflecting from her failure to protect the public.

Despite what was said about integrity, this government is just being dishonest like the previous one.

We don't need to get wrapped up into semantics, there are clearly a lot of angry people around and they have decided this is the right time to express that anger by violent protest - I feel the government should be being completely honest, solving the problem and not spouting meaningless rhetoric.

What exactly is she saying then if she's being 100% honest with her words? How is she so clear that every single person involved will pay the price?

Show quote history

How do you suppose they should "solve the problem"? Which problem do you mean? The needless rioting? Or whatever undefined "cause" they are rioting over?
And why do you think locking up arsonists isn't protecting the public?

GreenTeaLikesMe · 04/08/2024 14:52

Unfortunately there is no space in prisons right now. And I mean, like, no space.

SauviGone · 04/08/2024 14:51

Hateam · 04/08/2024 12:47

I think there will be a depressingly low number of convictions.

And the ones that are convicted, if sent to prison at all, will serve less than 40% of their sentence.

There will be barely any convictions, I doubt much will come of this at all tbh.

ghostyslovesheets · 04/08/2024 14:50

I don't think @jxpop665 will be happy until The Home Sectary rides into battle carrying a water cannon under each arm - I mean I'm not sure they understand governing

AdiLane · 04/08/2024 14:49

Given the purported motivation of failed immigration policy is a political issue for a significant proportion of the population, this is an unlikely be possible outcome.

Correcting your bold claim of ‘significant proportion’ - not true at all.

Having professional links with Yvette Cooper, she is a very honest, plain speaking and work with integrity.

She will do her absolute best to hold these thugs to account. I've no doubt she will succeed

DancingPhantomsOnTheTerrace · 04/08/2024 14:43

IMHO, the consequences for these rioters will be exactly what you can expect from a Labour Government.

The 2011 riots led to 1,800 years of sentences being given out (this was what was reported a year later, so that number will be larger as cases were still ongoing).
The average custodial sentence was 16.8 months - more than four times the average term handed down by magistrates' courts for similar offences.
This was when Kier Starmer was head of the CPS, and given it was all so high profile, I'd assume he was at the very least supportive of the prosecutions.