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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To contact this jazz band and tell them to stop using this word?

285 replies

FauxWhiteOrchid · 03/08/2024 10:25

There’s a local jazz event taking place soon and the bio describes the band as “Dixieland”. I remember the Dixie Chicks apologising and changing their name.

The word derives from the American South and is also used in a Confederate song. Here’s the full Wikipedia page for “Dixie”. Basically, its usage is racist.

I was surprised to see the word at all but also not surprised as I live in a very white Reform/Tory voting area.

AIBU to contact the band and ask them to change their description? Or leave them alone? I know what the reaction will be if I do contact them: just music blah blah been a traditional word for this style of jazz blah blah world gone mad woke blah joy thief etc. But I see no reason to use this word in this day and age.

WWYD?

OP posts:
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5
JustAnotherDadOf2 · 05/08/2024 13:08

FauxWhiteOrchid · 03/08/2024 10:25

I'm sorry, though well intentioned, you are being unreasonable, Trad Jazz is a form of music pioneered by black America, predominantly in the south. One of the earliest recordings was by a band who called themselves the original Dixieland band (or something like that) and so any recent band with Dixieland in the name playing Trad jazz is effectively a tribute band. Usually harmless old guys who admire and want to keep alive the creativity of black American musicians. Yes the music came about in socially deprived times, but it is just about the music. Take that away and you're taking away an important part of history (musically speaking) and the contributions by a particular ethnic group. If we seek to rewrite history and the unpleasantness of the past, then everything starts looking very white...

The story should be that these black American musicians made amazing music with beat up instruments, and little or no music training (mostly) that persists today. Celebrate it, don't berate it.

Iwasafool · 05/08/2024 12:57

LBFseBrom · 05/08/2024 06:39

I have heard the words, "Dixie' and 'Dixieland" before now but didn't realise it was racist before this thread. On Googling I found this:

'Modern interpretations. Beginning in the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s and 1960s, African Americans have frequently criticised "Dixie", saying it is a racist relic of the Confederacy and a reminder of decades of white domination and segregation."

I can understand that well enough, it's like 'coloured'. Whether Dixie is still considered racist or not, I do not know. I doubt it was meant that way in this instance, a lot would depend on the ethnicity of the band members.

This is about Dixieland Jazz not the word dixie. Are you like the sixth formers my GS knows who think Montenegro should be renamed because half the word is offensive?

Lorrymum · 05/08/2024 12:15

SouthernBelle2 · 05/08/2024 11:06

I think most people would think of it as a style of jazz, because it is. The name may have former racist connotations but I think that could be applied to a great many things. It's difficult enough to keep up with the constantly evolving terms we keep inventing to prevent us from offending anyone. But sometimes it can have a negative effect and in this case I believe it's important that the roots of ani important musical genre should remain in place to preserve the history behind it. What exactly is the point of trying to pretend something didn't happen by changing it's name. Do we want to live in a world with no history because it's been re-written? At what point do you outlaw the music itself because of it's roots.
Most countries have a shameful past, (ours has that and a shameful present too, thinking about the right wing thugs behaviour of the last few days) Pretending it didn't exist is not a healthy way forward in my opinion.

This!

StarlightLady · 05/08/2024 11:08

SouthernBelle2 · 05/08/2024 11:06

I think most people would think of it as a style of jazz, because it is. The name may have former racist connotations but I think that could be applied to a great many things. It's difficult enough to keep up with the constantly evolving terms we keep inventing to prevent us from offending anyone. But sometimes it can have a negative effect and in this case I believe it's important that the roots of ani important musical genre should remain in place to preserve the history behind it. What exactly is the point of trying to pretend something didn't happen by changing it's name. Do we want to live in a world with no history because it's been re-written? At what point do you outlaw the music itself because of it's roots.
Most countries have a shameful past, (ours has that and a shameful present too, thinking about the right wing thugs behaviour of the last few days) Pretending it didn't exist is not a healthy way forward in my opinion.

Exactly! A while back l recall (l think on MN) an objection to Honky Tonk as well.

SouthernBelle2 · 05/08/2024 11:06

I think most people would think of it as a style of jazz, because it is. The name may have former racist connotations but I think that could be applied to a great many things. It's difficult enough to keep up with the constantly evolving terms we keep inventing to prevent us from offending anyone. But sometimes it can have a negative effect and in this case I believe it's important that the roots of ani important musical genre should remain in place to preserve the history behind it. What exactly is the point of trying to pretend something didn't happen by changing it's name. Do we want to live in a world with no history because it's been re-written? At what point do you outlaw the music itself because of it's roots.
Most countries have a shameful past, (ours has that and a shameful present too, thinking about the right wing thugs behaviour of the last few days) Pretending it didn't exist is not a healthy way forward in my opinion.

Deboragh · 05/08/2024 10:40

Pharticle · 03/08/2024 11:08

Why so angry at people who just don’t want to offend others? Surely that’s a good and nice thing to do

The only people who are offended are the kind of people who go out looking for something to be offended by. OP needs to wind her neck in.

InsensibleMe · 05/08/2024 08:50

Valeriekat · 05/08/2024 01:53

Joan Baez!

Sang a cover version.

StarlightLady · 05/08/2024 07:29

JacquesHarlow · 05/08/2024 06:55

OP @FauxWhiteOrchid i am mixed race with a Black Caribbean parent

that doesn’t make me the police of all racism, but it does give me a perspective as someone who suffered a bit of racism as a child

YABVU

Very.

I wish people would stop with this armchair word policing, and put their energy into solving racism in real life.

This!

JacquesHarlow · 05/08/2024 06:55

OP @FauxWhiteOrchid i am mixed race with a Black Caribbean parent

that doesn’t make me the police of all racism, but it does give me a perspective as someone who suffered a bit of racism as a child

YABVU

Very.

I wish people would stop with this armchair word policing, and put their energy into solving racism in real life.

NewGreenDuck · 05/08/2024 06:48

I'll say it again. It's a style of jazz started by black people in New Orleans. It was very popular in the early 20th century. Other forms of jazz have developed from it.
Secondly, I am always astonished that people know nothing about history.

StarlightLady · 05/08/2024 06:46

Language evolves. Look how the gay and lesbian community have embraced the word “queer”, it is often now seen as a positive.

Surely the issue is whether there is any intention to be racist.

LBFseBrom · 05/08/2024 06:39

RickyGervaislovesdogs · 05/08/2024 02:01

Never heard the term. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I have heard the words, "Dixie' and 'Dixieland" before now but didn't realise it was racist before this thread. On Googling I found this:

'Modern interpretations. Beginning in the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s and 1960s, African Americans have frequently criticised "Dixie", saying it is a racist relic of the Confederacy and a reminder of decades of white domination and segregation."

I can understand that well enough, it's like 'coloured'. Whether Dixie is still considered racist or not, I do not know. I doubt it was meant that way in this instance, a lot would depend on the ethnicity of the band members.

FinalInstructionstotheAudience · 05/08/2024 06:35

AliAtHome · 04/08/2024 22:56

Me too OP (think it’s interesting). The word Dixie is synonymous with certain ideologies linked to the Confederacy- in other words slavery. It refers to the areas in the Deep South of the USA where slavery was legal. To the PP who said what alternative description could be used - try actually just naming the area e.g ‘jazz synonymous with the Deep South of the United States’. A term that has connotations of the oppression and injustice suffered by black people should not be used just because it’s ‘easier’ and you can’t think of a suitable alternative.

Edited

Look, slavery existed before Dixieland Jazz was created - by black musicians
Dixieland jazz, as with most jazz, mostly played by black musicians
Do you really think they would call it Dixielan jazz if they thought it had slavery connotations
So many mince thinkers around this

ImustLearn2Cook · 05/08/2024 04:25

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/27/us/dixie-term-south-racism-black-lives-matter-trnd

The word Dixie takes on a different meaning for different people.
Most commonly, it's associated with the old South and Confederate states. Dixie was considered the land south of the Mason-Dixon line, where slavery was legal.
But once the term was used in a minstrel song, its correlation with racist ideologies became crystal clear, according to Ingram.
"Most historians would agree that Dixie is a word people understand as* *obviously a reference not just to a place, but a certain kind of ideology," said Ingram, a history professor at College of Charleston in South Carolina.
"There's no mystery around all this,"she said. "People's instincts about this being a problematic term is definitely correct. It's correlated with something a lot darker than just history."

How the term 'Dixie' came to define the South

Dixie.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/27/us/dixie-term-south-racism-black-lives-matter-trnd

RickyGervaislovesdogs · 05/08/2024 02:01

Never heard the term. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Valeriekat · 05/08/2024 01:53

InsensibleMe · 03/08/2024 11:12

‘The Night They Drove old Dixie Down’. (Bob Dylan &) The Band. One of my favourite songs. I understand the context, it’s a song from the Confederate perspective about losing the Civil War. I wouldn’t call it racist.

Joan Baez!

OhcantthInkofaname · 05/08/2024 01:14

I forgot to mention before I have a cousin named Dixie.

AliAtHome · 04/08/2024 23:24

Somepeoplearesnippy · Yesterday 12:52
I'm sure if we tracked the derivation of many words they would refer to things that would now be considered unacceptable but languages, like attitudes, are constantly evolving. Just because a word meant one thing 20 or 100 or 500 years ago doesn't mean it means the same thing now. It won't even mean the same thing in two different countries or even two different areas of the same country.

You can't erase history from language.

EXACTLY! Language evolves, and as society or views change so do the words we use. Not long ago the term ‘spastic’ was used to refer to people with cerebral palsy. The charity Scope used to be called the ‘Spastics Society’, people with a disability were commonly called ‘handicapped’. I think most people would agree these are positive changes that reflect how we now feel and act - not erasing history.

AliAtHome · 04/08/2024 22:56

FauxWhiteOrchid · 03/08/2024 10:32

Interesting that 86% have voted that I am BU.

Me too OP (think it’s interesting). The word Dixie is synonymous with certain ideologies linked to the Confederacy- in other words slavery. It refers to the areas in the Deep South of the USA where slavery was legal. To the PP who said what alternative description could be used - try actually just naming the area e.g ‘jazz synonymous with the Deep South of the United States’. A term that has connotations of the oppression and injustice suffered by black people should not be used just because it’s ‘easier’ and you can’t think of a suitable alternative.

Cattery · 04/08/2024 22:52

Ilovecleaning · 04/08/2024 21:47

I thought they were dead.

😱

tillymintt · 04/08/2024 22:47

you're being ridiculous.

AtlanticMum · 04/08/2024 22:29

You did ask. 🤷‍♀️

Ilovecleaning · 04/08/2024 21:47

Cattery · 03/08/2024 11:20

What about the cartoon mice Pixie and Dixie? Perhaps they could be told…

I thought they were dead.

Merlin3189 · 04/08/2024 21:46

Since you want comment as well as a vote: I don't think any words should be banned or unuseable. IMO if words are used with innocent intent, then offence is taken not given. The person taking offence at an innocent remark is the one in the wrong.

Ilovecleaning · 04/08/2024 21:45

Bigearringsbigsmile · 03/08/2024 10:36

I think you need to stop policing other people's language and concentrate on your own behaviour.

lol! 😂

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