to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

The poster who mentioned the IRA and pointed out that all Catholics did not feel the need to apologise for the IRA's acts has a great point.
By coalescing into a single, identified, named organisation, the IRA (not "Catholics") became the people blamed for those acts.

When extremists who act in a way they associate with Islam commit terrorism, they is no one 'THESE GUYS' organisation to blame. It was Al-Qaeda, then ISIS, then ISIL, then other names popped up and honestly, it's all a blur.

I think it's fair to fear extremists who want others dead. Since we don't have a name for all extremists who act in a way they associate with Islam (because they aren't an homogeneous group!) it becomes difficult to know 'who the enemy is', IYSWIM. The blame and fear gets transmitted onto the one identifiable characteristic - Islam.

Anyone who works with, is friends with, talks to, likes Muslims knows that Islam is not the problem, it's the extremists who do terrible things. But we don't know what to call those people, and they are amorphous and faceless, which breeds more fear and distrust. Islamophobia is the fallout.

This is so tragic, as the extremists acting in a way they associate with Islam (note, they are TO ME, not Islamic/Muslim/faithful, as they don't represent Islam in the true sense) presumably don't want negative consequences for the religion they associate with. Not to mention Muslims being tarred with the broad brush of 'those scary people I don't have a name for or concept of'.

Being able to ask questions and be honest goes a long way towards breaking down fear and distrust. It takes courage and curiosity.

How about thinking of the three little girls who were killed rather than 'thank god he wasn't Muslim'.

I think this thread is in pretty poor taste. Several children have just been violently murdered, several more still fighting for their lives. First we had the far right psychos making it all about them and now you're trying to politicize their murders too. The only people my thoughts are with right now are those poor children and their families who have just had their lives destroyed. You're no better. There's a time for these discussions sure but I don't think today is the time. Have some respect.

Shall we open up the conversation to those too? All for it.

If certain groups don’t want to integrate and get on with their lives in peace so be it, for example there are many Jewish groups London who do just that, let them get on with it is say, they cause no issues for themselves, or the wider community.

Same for some Muslims, some/most Muslims I know, are perfectly happy integrating, please find where I said they aren’t. That poster went off on a tangent, and I’m quite shocked they felt the need to, having not understand my point, rather I’m racists and bigoted and hate Muslims. Right.

Just look to the international community, for guidance on how to relate to each other, travel a little.

This fucking thread is nuts.

@NewGreenDuck thank you.

Specific laws in blasphemy just for their religion. Or did you miss that. That's what the OP wants.

We ALL have a responsibility to dial back our rhetoric and treat one another with moderation and respect. ALL of us, on mumsnet, twitter, TV, everywhere. That's the only way we can combat extremism and we all have a responsibility to do it.

I agree with this. but trump is a wannabe fascist though, the jan6th uprising and recently he said after 2024 he would "fix it so good" no one would need to vote again. he is incredibly dangerous.
ultimately poverty, lack of education- these are the real issues. people of all races who are impoverished in the uk are frustrated and angry and looking for spmeone to blame after all the austerity, the economic bin fire, covid etc.

No I haven’t ignored your question at all. I quite clearly stated that we currently have equality laws and hate laws which cover protected characteristics such as religious affiliation, which would include protecting Muslims from persecution due to their faith. I also never said that Islamophobia didn’t exist. I again clearly stated that there are extremists in all groups of society, whether than be within the EDL or Islam. I also quite clearly stated that I wouldn’t blame an entire community for the actions of a small minority of extremists on any side. So, how you got that I was showing prejudice from that says to me that you are in fact the one who’s prejudiced against anyone who doesn’t agree with your stance 100%. You asked the question and now you’re name calling anyone who’s responded with answers that you don’t like. And there may well be as you say, microcosms of hatred taking place all the time, I’d say that’s true of all of those in the extreme factions of society. I also think it’s entirely relevant to point out that the vast majority of people don’t care what your religious belief are and just want to get on with their own lives. That the UK is on the whole a tolerant country, trying to make sure minorities are protected, because it is. You are trying to put across that it’s not and I disagree. That doesn’t make me prejudiced, it just means I don’t agree with you.

What new laws?

No, whole new religions will not start. Those religions will continue. What nonsense.

And for what it’s worth, Muslims also believe that the Messiah will return. And do you know who the Messiah is in Islam - Jesus himself. Mind blowing stuff isn’t it?!

Because they're not demanding we make any allowances for them.

Muslims on the other hand...they want new laws just for them.

@Gummybear23 the IRA weren't involved in a religious war. They weren't acting for the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church. The fight for the right of Irish people to actually control their state hasn't always been, and still isn't, along religious lines. Many nationialists have been Protestants or had no religion. The point of the argument / dispute is about who governs Ireland. About whether it's an independent state or a colony/ part of the UK. Whilst in recent times, and I do mean very recent times, those views have tended to be divided along religious lines that has not been the case for much of the struggle for independence.

We already have hate speech, hate crime, equality laws and others which include religion. What law specifically are you looking for?

Do you live in London? Where there are pockets of Indians in west London who keep only to themselves, where the first generation never learn English? Where there are groups of Jews in NW London who don’t integrate with others?

Ask yourself why your concern of lack of integration is focussed on Muslims alone.

if you imagine me blaming all white people for my ancestors being killed (I come from the colony, my ancestors suffered under British rule),

I think the issue here is that white people DO often get blamed for all the problems in the world. In 2020 and beyond there was a HUGE media discourse about white supremacy, white privilege and about how all white people today still benefit from colonialism and how all white people are inherently racist. There was a Woman of Colour on a BBC talk show who said 'Kill Whitey!" and the audience applauded.

So this is my point, there has been extremist rhetoric on all sides. There's a lot of extremist rhetoric online about Israelis being like Nazis or Trump being a facist. And vulnerable people read that stuff and it translates into stochastic terrorism in real life as we have seen.

We ALL have a responsibility to dial back our rhetoric and treat one another with moderation and respect. ALL of us, on mumsnet, twitter, TV, everywhere. That's the only way we can combat extremism and we all have a responsibility to do it.

They're only just talking about adding far right groups under the terrorist definition - so they and other groups don't appear in the stats.

I attended prevent training some yrs ago which very much included far right terrorism.

like maybe they are scared of the racism they will suffer?
like the time when a car full of edl supported drove into me a on purpose?
or every time when I go out I get told to do back to pakistan? even though I am actually from a totally different country and have never been to pakistan....
or the times I have been spat at, shouted at, shoved, my car door kicked in, patronised, refused service, the micro aggressions

the truth is now when I encounter white people, my guard is always up. I am waiting for the racism and even then, when it happens, it still knocks the wind out of me

Oh interesting. So what are some of the big far right attacks that have happened in this country?

I know about 7/7, Manchester arena, Westminster Bridge, London Bridge, Lee Rigby... I must have missed the equivalent far right attacks. Must be the press under reporting them?

But do you use the word antisemitism, which is used at every opportunity by Israel to shut down talk of the evil things Israel is doing? The fact that you only care when it's a Muslims says a lot. Why not just understand that both things can be true - individuals in the UK can experience fear and hate crimes, and governments abroad can seek to weaponise this for their own twisted means.

It won't come from the government. Muslim organisations need to write the definition and lobby for it to be accepted. That's what the Jewish community did. But be warned, just because there's a definition in place, it might not necessarily be observed or taken seriously.

this thread is not discussing Islam
it is discussing attacks against Muslims and whether as a community they need more protection in law by recognising the specific form of racism Muslims experience

if it was discussing Islam, I.e. the religion and hence theology, you would be beyond unqualified to participate as you are totally misinformed and prejudiced

I have no problem with you taking issue with what some individual Muslims do, I take more issue with people going around saying they are committing vile acts in the name of MY religion when they are in reality going against all of its values. they are enemies of Islam and Muslims.
I have a problem with you, or anyone else extrapolating these actions to make conclusions about the entire Muslim community and the religion. that is the very definition of racism.

if you imagine me blaming all white people for my ancestors being killed (I come from the colony, my ancestors suffered under British rule), for all the racism I have suffered including physical violence and making assumptions about English people based on my personal experience. that is what you are doing.

One of my children is best friends with a child who is Muslim. I am supportive of their friendship because they get along so well, not because he is Muslim. DS wants his best friend to come with him to celebrate his birthday soon. They have just gotten on so well since the start of primary school. It's been so nice to see their friendship blossoming. Long may it last 💕

Yeah, same here.

If Muslims in certain communities are choosing not to socialise more widely, there might be other reasons for that.

You know what? I wouldn't ask a Muslim to come out for "a drink". We have many Muslims in our community (school parents and work colleagues). Without fail they come to meals out and we all have a great time. I'd never think of asking a Muslim out to a pub or bar but definitely out for lunch or dinner.

This is NOT a thread discussing Islam. It's a thread discussing the hatred OP and her community receive and how scared it makes her feel. The fact you've taken it as a chance to criticise her community says everything about you.